UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Presentation Sword to RK Winner

Publically humiliated? I don't see how you can feel humiliated, except by your own self-admitted stubborness. I really thought you would see the forest through the trees here, when the sword received overwhelming support, and admit that you were wrong. Fred, you threw about 10 objections against the wall to see what stuck, and none of them stuck. Don't try to re-write history - it's all in this thread, for anyone with the free time and patience to read through it. It's your opinion against the following people:

General Wolf
Tom Johnson
Jason Burmeister
Ron Weinand
Craig Gottlieb
Robert Johns
Houston Coates
Robert Hassler
Howard Bayless
Wolfe and Hardin

You're entitled to your opinion, but we are entitled to criticise it. Wait, I forgot - we're all wrong. General Wolf pulled this whole thing off all to try to get his share of a $300 profit!

BRAVO! MR. Stevens!...BRAVO!

-wagner-

"Do you think my methods are unsound" (Col Walter E. Kurtz)

"I don't see any method at all, Sir" (Captain Willard)

From the movie "Apocaplyse Now"...I personally think it applies here.

To berate publicly and bait Fred is patently wrong and immoral. I have no dedicated blades at all for the reason argued above. Anyone could have made them at anytime.

Craig, you can't be right on everything and parts are changed on daggers and swords to meet the markets demands. I know this for an absolute fact. Don't you?

Mark

Please, can we stop this bickering and unprofessional airing of our somewhat dirty laundry to the masses and the new, novice collectors who are trying to learn that their is a great interest in WWII German edged weapons and it is not a field of interest composed of crooks and pretenders.
Fred, you of all people should know that discourse among the educated should be discussed and not cussed in public at best.
And Craig, pull back and accept that not everyone will believe in every piece, regardless of the paper trail.
Let's pull together and be civilized and end this debate as at least respected authorities in an area of collecting that already has some opponets in the public can end discussion on a positive note.
JMO,
Ron Weinand, D.P.
Weinand Militaria

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb:
Publically humiliated? I don't see how you can feel humiliated, except by your own self-admitted stubborness. I really thought you would see the forest through the trees here, when the sword received overwhelming support, and admit that you were wrong. Fred, you threw about 10 objections against the wall to see what stuck, and none of them stuck. Don't try to re-write history - it's all in this thread, for anyone with the free time and patience to read through it. It's your opinion against the following people:

General Wolf
Tom Johnson
Jason Burmeister
Ron Weinand
Craig Gottlieb
Robert Johns
Houston Coates
Robert Hassler
Howard Bayless
Wolfe and Hardin

You're entitled to your opinion, but we are entitled to criticise it. Wait, I forgot - we're all wrong. General Wolf pulled this whole thing off all to try to get his share of a $300 profit!

I Didn’t think I would be contributing to this post.
As I have absolutely nothing to contribute of any worth to these sword's originality.

BUT

But what amazes me Craig is that you initially asked Fred for his opinions on these daggers.

And a favourable report on one, which Fred wouldnt give. As he didnt like it for various reasons.

But you didn’t agree/like his opinion.

Fair enough...

Fred said nothing... Stum !! Nada !! Nothing !!

Financially or personally Fred would not have anything to gain or lose. He just didn’t like them.

Time passes and the daggers are sold...

Then this thread stated.... with "Look what I recently sold...."

And the maelstrom of accusations that followed.

Why did you not ask the above mentioned top collectors / Dealers to write their favorable opinion on you item?? Prior to its sale. ??
(Or perhaps you already have a written favorable opinion from one or several of them ??)

Why are the Schnaufer dagger pictures banned from being made public. ??

Am I just confused with the apparent smoke and mirrors , As it appears only Fred is giving direct answers (right of wrong I don’t know), but you are avoiding direct answers to questions like a bad rash. ??

I'm not picking sides nor do i have an agenda.

The Only thing I want satisfied is my curiosity.

The Only thing I want satisfied is my curiosity. [/QUOTE]

Amen.

It's fairly obvious from this thread and others such as the Huhnlein Dagger thread that if you happen to disagree with the "New Guard" of the hobby off forum, you will be baited into posting here...."outed" so to speak.

Craig, you've dodged the central questions of the Schnaufer dagger. That is, why would Schnaufer's comrades give him a dagger that had been against regulations for officers to wear for almost seven years? When was that dagger delivered considering the squadron was under heavy pressure from Allied Forces to displace and retreat into Germany, at a time when fuel stocks were at an all-time low and tranportation was chaotic? When was this dagger produced, considering that Solingen was heavily bombed by RAF Bomber Command on two occasions during the summer/fall of 1944... not counting raids by the USAAF in 1943?

I'm also rather puzzled why you would forbid the posting of pictures of this dagger, especially since a piece attributed to a RK recipient, let alone a Brillianttraeger and the highest scoring night-fighter of all time, would be the centerpiece of any collection and a coup for any dealer to offer.

One has to wonder if the Emperor has any clothes.

Craig,

To respond to your statement that it is my word against the word of the notable individuals that you list, and whom you claim support your argument, I would like to draw your attention to the following failings in your submission.

Firstly, General Wolf is dead, and has been so for the past 34 years thereabouts. Unless you are using an ouija board, or the services of a clairvoyant - then I very much doubt that General Wolf is giving you feedback that he discredits my presentation. (It is so typical of you that you claim authority and provenance from sources which cannot be checked. If you are asking me to put faith in this rubbish, then NO, I don't believe you).

Howard Bayliss has not replied to this thread (or yet to the letter I sent him) - so why are you implying that he supports you when he hasn't spoken up?

The same goes for Wolfe-Hardin, there has been no submission from them, so why are you claiming their unflinching support when they haven't gone public with their viewpoint?

Several other of your "names" spoke up in the early stages of this debate, and then decided to remain silent when I finally presented my version of this argument. In fact some of them have been in contact with me - and they are emphatic that they don't want to be involved in this. As one individual put it to me: it is not that he is taking sides, he simply doesn't want to get drawn into it - and yet you insist on claiming him as one of your adherents.

One feature about your list of supporters really perturbes me, it is the fifth name down - it is shown as one Craig Gottlieb. Is this some other Craig Gottlieb, or are you referring to yourself?

You see, Craig, when a man starts referring to himself in the "third person", then I start to question whether or not this individual has a true grasp on reality. It is not a healthy situation - I think that you ought to get out more.

FJS

Fred, I will buy any book you write.

As most likely the only discussion participant who personally knew him, I think that I have an obligation to rectify a serious omission. That being the adding of Dick Deeter to the “list”. He was somewhere between General Wolf and Howard Bayliss on the list of people with an opinion.

As one of my mentors, if I had known then what I know now: You can be sure I would have asked him about the sword!!!

Could we also now follow Ron’s suggestion and get back to the blades under discussion? And show thread readers how a discussion among gentlemen is conducted.

And because there is such an interest in the topic. Could we see some pictures? Both to satisfy reader’s curiosity. And as an educational tool. FP

Fred:
Please take a look at the navy dagger Craig posted. I'd be interested in hearing your take on the scabbard
regards
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
Please, can we stop this bickering and unprofessional airing of our somewhat dirty laundry to the masses and the new, novice collectors who are trying to learn that their is a great interest in WWII German edged weapons and it is not a field of interest composed of crooks and pretenders......

Hi Ron,
As a novice collector from asia, i fully agree with you. I've print out and saving this thread in a folder for learning purposes on a book shelve with other edged weapons books ....but this bickering is making me edit a lot of text..

Cheers,
Ibrahim,
Singapore.

i`ll probably get shot down for two simple little observations in all of this,not having seen the pics but i think it was mentioned about the hanger being mentioned in a letter missing from sword at some point ,then sword appears to have one so scabbord could be replacement .....could this have been the teardrop hanger that was mentioned in the letter , not the one permanantly attatched to the scabbord ,it may have had a teardrop hanger at some point it went missing ????,and in letter the guy just called it a hangerand wasnt refering to the one on scabbord.

as regards the dagger being non conforming to regulations of the date i think this had earlier fittings than allowed to be worn later if i have read the posts correct . i get the idea this was presented by commrades or family ....probably not ever intended for dress wear ,probably was in a drawer at home most of time . If a private purchase or upgrade then they could have perhaps asked for special features from manufacturer as the recipient prefered the old style ,what the hell it wouldnt matter about regulations for wearing the thing then.guess the blade etch wasnt standard .
i have a very expensive wristwatch that is a gift from wife and daughter engraved for my 40th but i dont wear it for work ,i wear a cheap £15 for work because they get trashed every 12 month or so. guess the dagger could have sat in a drawer most of time,only to be worn when the recipient knew he could get away with it .I have a police sword with triple etch blade ...now that doesnt really meet the police regulations of time i guess,but it was a custom order.

i`m not taking any side in this topic ,as i`ve got somewhat lost in it all ,and these points may have already been covered in the 13 pages,im not going to re-read them all, and i respect each of the views of all as single persons views,hell if we all thought exactly alike we wouldnt be human. but when we argue in the canteen at work for days on end ...eventually somebody else shouts..."no disrespect to anyone but ..give it a break lads"

A question to Craig...
If Rob wanted to return Both of these items to you, would you refund him in cash or trade?
Or, would you refund him at all? Just curious.
Thanks,
-wagner-

As a side note, this has to be a world record for GDC with almost 18,000 views.
Who once said that this forum was dead ?

Pat: The sad part about it is that the forum IS mostly dead. There are a few brave and noble hold-outs, many of whom participated in this thread. However, threads like this are the reason that SO MANY of the talented and intelligent people don't participate. Ron, Houston and I are among the ONLY dealers who even actually participate. You guys are right - this thread, and threads like it, have become a complete waste of time. To me, there is a sense of "informational entitlement" that has developed over the years, and it drives many of those with knowledge away.

Craig, this is just a personal opinion. But coming from the one who started the thread. And tried to shape where it was going to go - I think that’s a rather pessimistic outlook. What did you think was going to happen?? FP

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb:
Pat: The sad part about it is that the forum IS mostly dead.

In all honesty Craig, I sincerely hope that you're wrong.

GDC is still the best forum on the Internet if you are primarily interrested in 3rd Reich edged weapons.
But;Unfortunately; Other areas of the forum are pretty inactive. Case in point; I posted some pictures of a killer piece of trench art in the collectors Showcase today and its had 11 views. A few years ago there would have been hundreds.
Many of the moderators here that used to keep the other areas active have either left or are for the most part inactive.
I suspect that most of the active users here just look at the edged weapons forums and little else.
Jim

quote:

As a side note, this has to be a world record for GDC with almost 18,000 views.
Who once said that this forum was dead ?

Pat, 17,900 of those where mine, I dont get out much .

I don't believe it !
BTW, you have the most amazing avatar around.

Man

I would not want to debate Mr Stephens on the subject at hand...he comes ready to play : )

TOM

So far its not looking good.

What do you mean with "So far its not looking good "?

ROB

sorry I should have Clarified that...I meant for Craigs allready somewhat shaky reputation.I have talked at great length about him and the Majority seem to either barely tolerate him or dont bother with him.

Gents-
Please allow me to make an observation. This thread, good or bad, has resuscitated the Edged Weapon portion of the site and has drawn in a few folks, including myself, to view or even offer an opinion on the subject. Views and comments are vital to a site's survival.

I don't share Herr Gottlieb's opinion that GDC is dead. If he thought it was dead, why did he post a photo of Rob's sword for comment? In my opinion(and you all know what opinions are!) Fred Stephens has trumped Craig's attempts at defending the items in question. It appears to me that Craig is resorting to the pea & shell game and is unable or unwilling to provide the requested photos of the dagger in question. Craig, produce the darn photos, without the previous BS story regarding its original acquisition, and let us see them. If you've nothing to hide, what harm can the photos do?

Finally, I find your placing your own name beside some genuine edged weapons experts to be a bit vain and self-deluding. Your knowledge in the field no doubt eclipses my own, but, then, I didn't put MY name on the list

To Rob NL: I'm not making any judgements on your stuff. I'd simply like to see Fred Stephens get a straight answer from Craig. In the end, it will benefit us all.

Respectfully-

This thread seems to be the Energizer Bunny.

It won't be closed, but I will take out or edit any further insults or cheap shots. Please stick to the subject.

Dave

Gentlemen,

I will alleviate all your questions, the images that you demand will be posted. But firstly a few messages to those "in the know".

1) Vern - you previously deleted my submissions to this thread, and you did so without even consulting me. Please don't do it this time, because I will look for ways to avoid censorship or suppression. In fact, don't even think about doing it. You guys are supposed to be the vanguards of the "free world" - so let's see that it really exists.

2) Craig - you have been asked many times to put up the images of the Schnaufer piece. Why are you so scared to do it? You were pretty brave when you thought you could taunt me - but when the going got tough, then the tough........carried on without you. Please don't give me any crap about me being disloyal, or ungentlemanly, or any other of the oily, slimey, deprecating descriptions that you use against my attempts at defense. We will have this situation rectified right now.

3) Rob NL - You will have little to thank me for in this, you were an innocent victim whom I tried to help, but whom I (and my other friends on this site) could not reach to give you the benefit of our combined knowledge. You will no doubt think that we deliberately set out to spoil your enjoyment of this hobby. Actually, that wasn't really the case - we all did have something of worth to impart to you. But it couldn't be delivered. Sorry that you missed out here.

4) GDdot.com subscribers and viewers - there are many thousands of you - and I am sure that you want to know the answer to the special circumstances that permeate through this thread - so here they are:

5) There exists an image of a Schnaufer presentation dagger, but the seller of the dagger refuses to show it to public. I do have images of the same piece - and I will state in advance that it is questionable.

In the light of overwhelming public pressure I will post images of the Schnaufer Dagger - even though this goes against the culture of this site.

Just to seek approval I will ask all members of German Daggers dot com to send an e-mail or submission to this thread. Quite simply, what I require is this:-
If any person desires to see the image of the Schnaufer dagger - even though it might be questioned that it is beyond copyright to do this - then please submit an entry, and restrict it to the words: YES, PLEASE SHOW THE SCHNAUFER DAGGER.

If there are more than 100 requests, by 6.00pm tomorow night (18.00 GMT) 5 August, 2007, then I will publish the phtotograph for all to see.

I have tried my best, I can do no more.

FJS

Fred,

If someone else took those photos - and therefore owns the copyright of them - you may NOT post them without that person's stated permission. If the person who took the photos objects - again - The photos will be deleted .... again.

And, whether you get 5 or 5000 requests, the above statement stands.

Dave

quote:

If someone else took those photos - and therefore owns the copyright of them

Would not that person be obligated to present proof of copyright through legal documentation???

If Craig claims to have copyright to these images, then he must prove it, or else the images are NOT in fact covered under copyright law...

Not to restate what Dave has posted above, so there is no misunderstanding, it seems clear that forum policy will not permit the publication of unauthorized images. Which, aside from any possible legal issues, I think is a prudent way to conduct business especially if there are strong objections for whatever reason from the owner(s) of the material.

As the actual physical owner of the two items being discussed. I would think that given what has transpired in this discussion. Rob NL now possesses considerable leverage in his relationship with Craig over what happens with any materials relating to the items in question. In other words, he (at least IMO) is now “in the driver’s seat”. And could either ask Craig to release the images, or provide his own as he did earlier for another GDC forum. That he has apparently not done so seems clear, but is certainly his prerogative.

I hope that somebody will correct me if I’m wrong. But if the images that are potentially going to be posted were not taken by Craig. Then they can be presented on the forum? FP

Well, I for one would like to see the subject dagger photographs as an interested reader of this thread.

My understanding is that a legally copyrighted work product (print or photos) can be shown and commented upon here under the fair use doctorine of the copyright law. It is the same as a critical book review in the newspaper or an academic discussion in any school in the US. Of course the owners of this website have the option of deciding what they wish to have shown as well. So the question seems to be will the website allow the photographs to be shown and commented upon?

Any image posted on the Internet becomes property of the public unless it has been (through legal protocol) officially copyrighted..

If, in fact, Craig took the images, he would have to prove that and if he claimed they are protected by copyright laws he would then have to prove that also..

I can't imagine Rob NL can possibly enjoy these two pieces anymore. I would never feel comfortable with them..

Let see the darn pictures, once and for all !
This is getting ridiculous, with all the copyrights BS.
Who are we protecting, Al Quaida for God's sake ?
Give me a freaking brake.
We are not spoiling the free world and western democracies by not showing those pictures.

I think that it is about time that we put an end to this never ending saga and Frederick should be allowed to show those pictures for everyone to view.
Anything less will be looked upon with suspicion and will definitively not help the hobby. On the contrary, it will make it even more "dirtier".

I don't believe in that copyright BS.
How many times have we viewed pictures that were protected by copyrights and yet, no one went to jail or got sewed as far as I know.

You learn something new every day!

Disclaimer: This is NOT a legal opinion.

That said, I think George/ORPO (a well respected author) is right on the money. There is a four prong test. And under the “Fair Use” doctrine the posting/reposting of the image or images is permitted for educational (etc.) purposes.

Forum “law” however supersedes what is legally permitted. So it seems to be up the site owners to make the call. FP

ORPO Is 100% correct. The fair use doctrine applies here as there is no financial incentive involved in showing these pictures. Let's see if we're going to have another Amman dagger "situaton"* here.

*And I'm being tactful in my use of the word situation.

YES, PLEASE SHOW THE SCHNAUFER DAGGER

Yes, lets show the darn dagger. I'd like to see it.

Gailen David

YES, PLEASE SHOW THE SCHNAUFER DAGGER.

quote:

Originally posted by Frederick J. Stephens:
......If any person desires to see the image of the Schnaufer dagger - even though it might be questioned that it is beyond copyright to do this - then please submit an entry, and restrict it to the words: YES, PLEASE SHOW THE SCHNAUFER DAGGER.....

Dear Frederick,

YES, PLEASE SHOW THE SCHNAUFER DAGGER.

Cheers,
Ibrahim,
Singapore.