UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum ss police sword

Hi all,

I just acquired this 3rd reich piece of history. This is the first one, and I do not know to much about this sword. I would like to share some pics and hope you have some comments.
It's made by carl eickhorn and has an Aluminim (light metal) handle insert.
One thing however which worries me a bit is that the pommel nut is plain, ie it has not ss runes on it. Further there is no wire wrap the handle as I have seen on other swords of the type. Hope you have some constructive collecting tips,

Thanks,
PJ

The configuration of your sword appears to be 100% correct for a police NCO model. There is no wire grip wrapping on this type and the SS culture marks on the hilt and scabbard are thought to denote duel membership in both the SS and police.
If there were SS runes on the top of the pommel cap the grip would be devoid of any insignia also. In that case you would have an SS NCO model instead.
The SS and police swords are far and away my most favorite model so congradulations and I hope you enjoy yours.
Jim

Sorry-that is incorrect about the hilt and scabbard runics--it does not in any way indicate SS membership when found on a police sword. It's just a police sword.

I would point out if the pommel cap on a police sword (police eagle in the grip) has SS runes cast into or engraved on it, conventional wisdom indicates the sword belonged to a police officer or lower ranks member who was also a member of the SS. Such swords are often, but not always, found with SS portepees attached. Some authentic police swords have the so-called "SS proofmarks" and some do not. There is speculation as to why such is the case. Some dealers and other sellers tout the "proof-marked" swords as "SS issue," etc., to attract interest and to place a higher price on them.

Houston, Where did you get your info? I have read that these were issues to Police/SS members? thanks in advance!

I don't know where you read that but there is no period information to support it. As Grumpy said--its dealer hype--they even say SS Fire Police-absurd. Also it is not an inspection stamp-more of a design stamp--and-the very very vast majority of these swords were not issued-they were bought.

Ok Houston:
I have no trouble either in understanding "dealer hype"! Lets assume you're right. Then what is your explaination for the purpose in stamping these Police swords with the SS culture mark? And why do some vet acquired police swords have a SS portepee attached?
Jim

Jim, I thought I had included the information on the "Kulturzeichen" in the SS-Police sword article I assisted Tom Wittmann in writing for his SS sword book. An article in the bi-weekly police magazine "Die Deutsche Polizei" in the fall of 1938 discussed the introduction of the new SS-Police swords and the regulations governing their issue and wear. It was pointed out in the article that the production was under the control of the SS and that propspecttive purchasers should examine their intended purchases for this mark to insure quality.

The magazine was published for all personnel of the police, not just SS members. The swords were titled SS-Polizei Fuhrerdegen and Unterfuhrerdegen, but this appelation did not indicate that a purchaser was or had to be an SS member. If there is any other source material indicating another purpose for this Kulturzeichen found on SS-Police swords, I would like to know of it.

The reason you will find some vet acquired SS-Police swords with an SS portepee is that it was authorized in the carrying regulations of the police to indicate SS membership of the policeman.

Thank for the response Joe:
I will re-read that section in T. Wittmanns book.
Hopefully I was able to get the point across to the gentleman that started this thread that he in fact has a police NCO sword.
Jim

Jim, you are most certainly correct in that assessment. It is a plain vanilla police NCO degen.

Thank you guys for the comments. I'am very happy with the sword and I'am glad everything is as it should be.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge,

Peter

It is a very nice sword and one to be proud of. All things considered, I believe most collectors would find the "SS-marked" police swords more desirable than those not marked. Some makers, however, did not so mark their swords, "ALCOSO" being one of them. I own a police officer sword by that maker that has SS runes on the pommel cap and came with an SS officer portepee. Just an illustration that the SS stampings do not necessarily indicate the sword was initially owned by someone associated with the SS and vice-versa.

As I pointed out in the Wittmann chapter, I think Himmler/the SS was involved in some sort of remuneration from the favored SS-Polizei Degen manufacturers because of evidence I found of complaints from the non-authorized manufacturers to senior party officers of favoring of certain companies using the Kulturzeichen. How long this continued after introduction of the swords in 1938 I do not know. But the documentation indicated production was pieced out to other factories for parts. Perhaps this practice was finally curtailed and this later production had no Kulturzeichen.

This may not be the appropriate place but I don't know where else to bring it up. Joe or anyone: Your thoughts as to why the SA never adopted a sword?
Jim

Jim, it's mostly speculation, but I believe it is because the SA took a lesser and lesser role in the affairs of the party once the party came to power. The Rohm purge and the SA's subordination to the SS may have played a role. Although the SA was a powerful paramilitary organization in the early days and was highly instrumental in placing Hitler in power, it wained in influence and importance after that event occurred. It appeared to have lost much of its military and policing functions, which were taken over by the SS. In other words, it became more "civilian" in nature, while the SS became more of a military (SS-VT, Waffen-SS, etc.), policing and intelligence organization. Such organizations had a tradition of carrying swords, so that tradition carried over into the SS. Also, SS honor swords had a specific role of a symbolic nature. There are photos of SA portepees in references and there are sabers with SA inscriptions, etc., but, apparently, the use of swords by the SA was short-lived, if officially authorized at all. I suspect since the SA lost any military and policing roles to speak of, the wearing of swords by its members was not deemed desirable or necessary.

I think Grumpy's historical synopsis is quite valid. The military character of the SS as opposed to the more civilian character of the SA was evident. The SA seemed more aged in its rank and file, and perhaps there was a money and youth in the SS ranks that precipitated the drive to the swords. To make them different from the SA and more like the armed forces who carried swords.

Except for the FJK, I can't recall seeing a sword held by an SA leader. Perhaps the Feldherrnhalle?

At least two SA organizations are known to have carried sabers, the Feldjaegetkorps and Stabwache Herman Goering. See photo on p 310 of Baer's"The History of the German Helmet 1916-1945" for a photo of Stabwach Herman Goering with sabers. The feldjaegekorps was assimilated into the police after only a few months of existence, and I agree that after the Rohm purge the leadership was probably reduced in number and presige to the point that adopting a saber was just not considered important at the time. Here is a link to a photo of the original Eickhorn factory records concerning the order for 52 SA sabers. http://www.relicsofthereichs.com/daggers.htm (its at the bottom of the page. Joe S

Leaving SS ceramics/pottery and daggers out of the equation, in addition to SS and some German Police swords manufactured in Solingen, the SS Kulturzeichen is seen well into 1941 and most probably 1942 on the hilts of SS Birthday Swords made by the Otto Gahr company in Munich. But not on conventional Dachau made SS swords.

My point being that on edged weapons - whatever else it did - it seems to have served as a de facto inspection/acceptance mark. If it had been for some other purpose it should be seen on the conventional Dachau manufactured Degens, but that very definitely is not the case.

Joe Wotka�s insight into the SS/Police swords in the book opened a lot of collector�s eyes as regards the �SS Kulturzeichen�, many of whom had some strange ideas earlier as to the markings. He also made an excellent observation of some kind of �remuneration� deal as regards early Degen manufacture. Which has the �ring of truth� because of some of the other �business� dealings of the SS always hungry for more money to assist in its expansion.

As for the Coppel company after it was �Aryanized� in 1936 it�s hard to say who the true new owners were but there exists the possibility that it became the property of the �SS Economic Empire� like so many other businesses of the time. Unfortunately the company was destroyed in a bombing attack in 1944 leaving the mystery of the SS prototype daggers also pictured in Tom Wittmann�s book.

The SS "birthday" presentation swords were made by Paul M�ller. The Gahr firm made the Deutschland Erwache standards, and other Party items which, by the way, Ulrich covered very well in his excellent book. The firm of Otto & Karolina Gahr of Munich is the subject of a book in German by Meyer & Schild, It covers the subject of Gahr & Diebitsch in greater detail.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe S:
At least two SA organizations are known to have carried sabers, the Feldjaegetkorps and Stabwache Herman Goering. See photo on p 310 of Baer's"The History of the German Helmet 1916-1945" for a photo of Stabwach Herman Goering with sabers. The feldjaegekorps was assimilated into the police after only a few months of existence, and I agree that after the Rohm purge the leadership was probably reduced in number and presige to the point that adopting a saber was just not considered important at the time. Here is a link to a photo of the original Eickhorn factory records concerning the order for 52 SA sabers. http://www.relicsofthereichs.com/daggers.htm (its at the bottom of the page. Joe S

FJK=Feldjagerkorps. The SA-FJK existed for almost two years before being merged into the Prussian police.

IMO the photo in the Baer book does not constitute evidence that any sword was specifically issued to the Stabswache, like the FJK. The officer in that early photo could be carrying his WWI issued piece or whatever.

FJK swords were a definite issue that are corroborated by the Eichhorn documentation in the collection of Mike M.