UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Robert Klaas company

Hi,

I was wondering if some of you may have information regarding the Robert Klaas company of Solingen. I�m particularly interested in the WW1 period, but WW2 and the interbellum is also of interest.

The question I have is if Robert Klaas did have its own manufacturing facilities and produced their own products, or were they merely a dealer/trading company, representing other Solingen area manufacturers under the Klaas brandname.

I know of private dress bayonets, sabres and daggers, but I am not aware of any service issue edged weapons with official acceptance marks with the Klaas logo. Do you know if these exist?

When, for instance, looking at the Klaas dress bayonets, would it be possible that these have been produced by some subcontractor, or do they have characteristics which are unique to Klaas?

I am not aware of any clear variations in the Klaas logo, compared to the various Eickhorn logo�s for instance. Do you know if such variations exist?

Any piece of info to get a more accurate picture of Klaas as a dealer or as a manufacturer, or perhaps as both, would be much welcomed.

Thanks,

Kilian

Hi Killian,

I'm pretty sure Klaas had their own manufacturing facility in Solingen. If you have Tom Johnson's original series, there should be a picture of the Klaas factory in TJ Volume VIII. Klaas' dress bayonets do have a distinctive pommel shape which is subtly distinguishable from other manufacturers of the period. Part swapping during wartime was always a possibility but all Klaas pieces I've seen had their distinctive pommel. I've also seen some smaller cottage manufacturers that had the Klaas pommel so it's quite possible Klaas supplied other makers with parts.

Regarding Klass' logos on dress bayonets, I have seen & own 3 distinct examples of Klaas' maker mark. I posted pictures of the 3 in the old "Fireman's Bayonets" thread that has since disappeared from GD however Terry K. has the same logos in his "Bayonet Trademark" thread:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...2097573/m/1750004555

I don't believe I know if there was as clear cut a timeline with Klaas' logos as with the Eickhorn logos. From the examples I've handled, I'd have to say the logo with just the kissing cranes (pictured in Terry's list as version 1) would be the earliest of the 3R era marks.

Thanks Billy. Unfortunately, I do not have Tom Johnson�s books. Oddly, I did not think of checking Terry�s thread for the logo�s.

Yes, the first logo, with just the kissing kranes, is early, as it can be found on WW1 Ersatz bayonets, eg the Carter EB02.

The EB02 can also be found with the Koeller & Cie mark and military inspection marks.

The example of the EB02 with the early Klaas logo, of which I have seen photographs of, does not have military inspection markings.

I was asking myself if this was actually made by Klaas or perhaps made by Koeller and sold to the private market under the Klaas brandname.
Hence I was wondering if Klaas had their own manufacturing facilities during WW1.

By the way, does anyone know what happened to Koeller & Cie after WW1?

Kilian

Yes, Klaas did manufacture their own product. Also, the sought contracts, as evidenced by the blades of the German Red Cross. Evidently Klaas and P.D. Luneschloss had the contracts for the Officer's Dagger and the Red Cross Hewer all wrapped up during the Third Reich.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Hi Killian.

Klaas was manufacturing their own products during the WWI zeit although I don't know if there was an affiliation between Klaas & K�ller during any period. Fisher's guide lists Klaas as having commenced production in 1834. Still in operation as of 2002 at which time they acquired the Bertram & Sohn trademark. Not sure if they're still around today. Quite a prolific Solingen manufacturer.

Interesting as to the question of what happened to K�ller after the WWI, Anthony Carter's maker mark book states (p. 253) that after the war (presumably he meant WWII), the firm was acquired by Lauterjung & Sohn GmbH, Pumawerk.

BillyG:

Koeller is a different company from the two Kollers (with umlaut) that are listed in Fisher.

It was Hugo Koller (with umlaut) that was acquired by Puma in 1990. There is no mention of what happened to F Koeller & Co.

John

Yes John, I mean F. Koeller & Cie (or & Co) with oe, not �, as in K�ller.

Thanks for helping to avoid a misunderstanding.

Kilian

I searched the Internet for further info�s regarding F. Koeller & Co. They were still in business in the 1930�s as they were issued RZM code M7/97. However, I found that they were manufacturers of scissors and razor blades before WW1 and I found them again as a manufacturer of razor blades after WW1 (1932).

I am not aware of any military edged weapons by F. Koeller & Co after WW1, so I assume they received the RZM number as a supplier of razorblades.

Unless anyone has other info, I presume the production of Ersatz bayonets by F. Koeller & Co during WW1 was only a temporary sidestep from their normal business.

Robert Klaas can also be found as a manufacturer of razorblades, so this would confirm that they had their own manufacturing facilities.

Kilian:

Fisher notes that Koeller & Co was a manufacturer of straight razors and razor blades.

They are also listed as a rare maker of SA daggers and Hitler Youth knives and that they were assigned the RZM code of M7/97, as you have stated as well.

This means that they did produce political, not military, edged weapons after the first world war.

John

Good points John. Thanks for the clarification, I had the wrong one. Typing while recovering from intoxication not recommended.

Billy:

I try not to recover... if I stay intoxicated, then my stupidity level stays constant.

It's the confusion your body goes through as it keeps changing its alcohol level that causes errors.



John

In reference to Klaas making non political items in WWII or not dress items. I noted Anthony Carter makes note of Klaas making the tools part of the S42 bayo from Eickhorn and marking it with Klaas 3 letter code. He made no reference to this being listed in a publication. But he seems to always be spot on for reference. Here is an export hang tag from Klaas(sorry it way OT but its kinda my gig!)so they did do quite a bit of exporting that I know of.
Bret Van Sant