UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Inscription

Is there a chance this was period done?

I would have to say: NO Chance. Look at the word ERINNERUNG. The scratch is not through the word, but the engraving is over the scratch. Looks like it was added after the dagger left the engraving looks to have been added after the dagger was used. A bad sign to me.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I don't know Ron. I can't tell if that is a scratch or abbrasion. Nice historical inscription. I would prefer to see it in person.

Where inscriptions not commenly added after that or during the wear of a dagger?

PJ

I would like to see it.

That may not be a scratch but just a rub on the patina.

My take on inscritions is that they could be done before or after issue. Obviously, the high end stiff presented to the bigwigs was done on new daggers. I think some of the presentations to mid and lower ranking guys was done on their existing dagger. Partly for economy reasons and probably also because the guy might have been attached to the dagger.

Dave

Let me get this straight Dave, your going to make a presentation of a used or worn dagger for a remembrance of an event at a national level?
It sure looks like a scratch to me.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I understand Ron's point (similar to:"what came first; the chicken or the egg?") The "scratch" looks much more pronounced in the photo. It is an extremely shallow surface mark when compared to the depth of the inscription. If it resulted after the inscription was made. Wouldn't it just skip over the letters which are much deeper and make it nearly impossible to tell which came first? My main concern in posting this was if the font, grammar, size, etc. looks plausible? Most accepted inscribed daggers I have seen were either "flowery" jeweler inscribed letters or rather crude hand stamped things that were crooked or slanting, etc. I will try to get better close-ups. Thanks guys for the opinions so far. I'm a newbie here!

Close-up

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More pics of the dagger

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I, personally, have two things I wonder about.
#1) The "Reichsparteitag der Arbeit", if I'm not mistaken, took place in 1937. This dagger appears to be an earlier vintage. Although I'm sure there were plenty of the maker-marked daggers still available, would it get a group mark in 1937?
#2) It is an NSKK dagger while the inscription indicates an SA type thing. Possibly the owner transfered or, if original, presented for appreciation of NSKK assistance in transporting the SA units????

On the plus side. This was purchased from an "out-of-the-woodwork" type of thing. Not from another collector or dealer -- but not from the veteran either.

I agree a hands-on inspection is probably in order here. May I suggest,If both parties are amenable, That John ship the dagger to Ron who seems to have the most doubts. We all know the Ron has handled dozens of inscribed daggers over the years and is well qualified to render an opinion.

Well, I would have no problem with this but rather than all the hassles mailing it back and forth (and risks with the postal service), I could bring it to the MAX show in a few short months.

John,

No point in sending to either Ron or myself. We have both given our opinion.

Send it to Tom Wittmann, pay a few dollars and have it appraised. He's doing a book on the SA daggers and if he includes your dagger, it will more than pay for the appraisal.

Take it to MAX if you want, but the freebee "drive by" 30 second dealer opinions you get at big shows are worth nothing.

Dave

???
Dave, Perhaps I misunderstand.
I have had the pleasure of havng Mr. Whittmann and Mr. Shea be kind (and patiest/generous) enough to authrnticate 3 daggers that I have purchased (not from them!)at the MAX and SOS shows in the last few years (Including a partial Roehm).
I purchased these pieces from OTHER dealers and they were kind enough to give me the "thumbs up/down" without my paying for authentification (although I always offered).
Are you saying that these "30 second dealer opinions" are not reliable or of valuble?
I always considered this interaction and open display of goodwill as one of the PRIMARY benefits of going to shows as opposed to buying "online".
Am I wrong on this???

quote:

I would like to see it.

Dave, I'm confused. Your opinion seemed to be you would like a "hands on inspection." What I meant was, Ron is usually at the MAX and SOS. Rather than mail it to him, I would just stop by his table and give him a gander. In the mean time, I will take your advice and contact Wittmann. Many thanks to all who looked!

I did not jump in immediately, I just wanted to see how the discussion develops. There is at least a clear mistake in the inscription done by the engraver who obviously wanted to copy an existing period text or at least a part of it. The engraver used an engraving tool and did nothing, I say NOTHING know about the german script, how the script has developed and the sense of german writings. If you can live with my statement this way and believe me it�s ok, if you want a detailed explanation, I am sorry, I am not willing to support future fakers and future fakes any more. I wish you much luck in believing a faker. Sometimes it is a very hard thing to detect a fake inscription for sure. Sometimes there is only one point, sometimes there are several points. It needs detailed knowledge on engraving skills, on scripts and much more. If we always publish all we know about it we don�t have to wonder when we get fake inscriptions which are near to 100% (in my opinon there are several of those 100% already in collections because they cannot be prooved the other way).
It is a shame how this nice and scarce maker marked dagger has been detroyed forever.
There is so much wishful thinking concerning inscriptions because they add much worth to an otherwise common and "cheap" piece.
My understanding is that EACH inscription is faked untill it can be prooved that it is 100% period.....
"If you want to collect german items you have to think the german way!" (NOT meant in any POLITICAL way!).

quote:

My understanding is that EACH inscription is faked untill it can be prooved that it is 100% period.....

Wotan, come on... no such proof is ever possible now, unless a new scientific method of dating these inscriptions can be deviced. All the Wittmann volumes (for example) have chapters on personalized, named, dedicated, presented pieces, and in these we see varying degrees of skill, and many engraving, stamping, scripting styles. I am yet to see a solid reference on this specific subject.

Interesting thread,

Wotan has made pertinent observations.

Mine differ slightly, and I would be happy to discuss this subject in personal messages or publicly.

Based on period grammar and writing habits I would say that the engraving is period, and it is very unlikely that it may have been done recently.

I will say that I sent a picture of this to a language professor at a university in Germany (my niece!). She saw nothing inconsistent to the time period with it in regards to grammar, spelling, syntax, etc.

Dear fellow collectors. Maybe I am a little harsh on these engraving/stamping/etching things. Perhaps because I have seen too many nice edged weapons, pieces of art and history, which has turned into (nearly) worthless scrap because of some crooks who unscrupulous have added an engraving/stamping/etching on them. I have seen those 100% fake inscriptions even in references. Naturally I am aware that there do exist period incriptions. They are imo very rare. Even monogrammed edged weapons are scarce.
Perhaps you can feel as overreacted when I wrote that my understanding is that each inscription is fake until it can be prooved that it is 100% period. OK, I would take eg. dokumentation, coming out of the family of the former wearer, got from vet, conforming to other documentated items, careful -very careful inspection and NOT THE LEAST red flag as close as posible to my requested 100%. All to be seen under the common restrictions.
On the other hand, Gustavo, when it is not prooved why do YOU (should we) believe ??? Do you believe in any story, the nice face of a seller?
I will answer each PM or mail on this matter. I do not want to discuss these delicate matters in public. Once those crooks - and I am sure those crooks also are watching our discussions - do know what to look for, how to avoide their mistakes, there is no more chance left to detect fake inscriptions.
On the other hand, who cares if period or not. So much of the collectors do like them, do buy them for peremiums, so let them live with them and let them be happy with them.
From now on I will restrict my comments on engravings/stampings/etchings in public. They lead to nothing but controverses and unhappy feelings on most sides. It is also very hard to lead such a complicated discussion in a language which is not your motherlanguage.
From time to time I got mails wherein I was asked for my opinion on a inscription. The members have been very glad and thankful when I could tell them the one or the other way. Also privately it is a much more easy and serious thing to explain why an inscription tends to be the one or the other way.
Kind regards,

Hi wotan,

Please watch your mp's.

Sure, engravings are rae, but they do exist. I have a unit marked Polizeidegen which I have bought back in 1981, and it was not very expensive, I didn't pay more because of the engraving.

You cannot proove that an engraving is period, unless investing a lot of money.

You cannot proove either that a vet acquired item is original.

But there are probabilities depending on period tools, grammar, writings etc.

At this period certain tools were not used or were used in a certain manner which could only be reproduced with some difficulties, supposed that the fakers know period composing (not just writing).

Computerised engraving is not too difficult to spot

This has been composed by a professionnal and skilled german specialist I think.

Sure, many artifacts of the 3rd reich are destroyed by fakers, like the many decal helmets actually.

Personalised engraving always leaves a special hand writing, and it is sometimes very difficult to imitate from what I have seen, be it done by hand or by machines. It seems to me that it is the case here.

The person who has composed this has worked in composing pre 45.

And, dear Wotan, you are right, to find out what seems wrong, german must be your mother languqge

Your observations and opinions Mr. Wotan are greatly appreciated by me as well as those of all the others who have taken a bit of their time to comment. Thanks to all! I purchased the dagger primarily for the maker's mark on the blade which is not often encountered plus the fact that it didn't come from a dealer or another collector. If the inscription is fake its a shame that someone would mar a nice item such as this. But I hardly feel it has been "destroyed".

Wotan i appreciate all your points. I am simply saying that "proof" is simsply NOT possible. In order to speak of proof i would require some kind of scientific method for dating the inscriptions, a method that is not availale for now. What IS available is a series of common sense criteria, plus grammar plus knowledge of history.

In summary, I would argue:

1. Members of the Wehrmacht and of the NS period political organizatrions DID engrave, stamp and personalize their edged weapons for a variety of reasons

2. Those inscriptions were done in a variety of scripts, styles and degrees of skill

3. Authenticity (i.e. determination of the inscription having been done prior to may 1945) may be judged with a high degree of certainty (up to 80% certainty perhaps) by applying several criteria

Dear fellow collectors. If this certain inscription would have fitted to grammar, "look" of writing, sense of the inscription, those several criterias Gustavo has written of, I would not have made any input. It is senseless to question any flawless inscription even if it MIGHT be faked.
In this case there are at least two imo mistakes (I first wrote of one ). I ask you all - who are interested in this case - how many mistakes do you need in an inscriptions to believe that it would not be period? One, two or more??? Shall we make a poll how many mistakes are necessary??? And what do you count as a mistake and what could be simple an error???
I am very sad about such a nice and scarce mm dagger which has been disfigured with this incription. I just want to help an not to damn an item. Just my elementary thoughts on this field of collection.
Gustavo, I agree to your points! But obvious mistakes within an inscription never let it gain even the 80% .
Currently Thor and I am in a deep PM discussion on the matter.

Any chance I could be included in the PM discussion? Remember me? I'm the guy with the dagger! Any sensitive information given me would be held in confidence..

John, I am curious why you obscured the entire inscription with the penny? Can we see the NSKK scabbard?

Nothing secret John,

We are talking german which is much easier for me.

Wotan has convincing arguments concerning period german language, grammar and the usage of german writing.

He also believes with a lot of reasons that the type of engraving is not period.

For these pertinent reasons and others I would offer you an original scabbard which has not been buggered with as a trade for this altered relic.

I would like to keep it possibly with some display daggers as an example.

John Huff, I think you wouldn�t be happy beeing included as the discussion is entirely in german language. Be sure you wil get any final conclusion per PM.
Joe, I originally have thought this would be for to compare height of the letters - but yes- John Huff, I also would like to see the whole upper scabbard fitting.

Nothing sinister about the penny. I simply put it there for a reference as to the size of the engraving. I will post scabbard pictures.

Pictures taken outside in bright sunlight.

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Thanks for the trade offer. My personal policy is to destroy any fakes in my collection to prevent re-circulation.

Can anyone decipher the name and was there an SA Oberfuhrer by this name?

Oberfuhrer was an SA rank in the 1930's. see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_the_...#1932_.E2.80.93_1945

Here is a list of men who held the rank
http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/STURMABTEILUNG/SA-Oberf.html

Also, Reichparteitag der Arbeit was the 1937 edition of the Reichparteitag
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/nazi/innenpolitik/parteitag/index.html

John, dont destroy this scabbard just yet

"Zur Erinnerung" (in memory) is correct German and was correct German

Reichsparteitag der Arbeit (Reich Party Day of Work) see above, well known day.

Aufmarschstab der SA, the marching staff of the SA for large events such as the Reichparteitag. The files of the "Aufmarschtab der SA" are available at the Bundesarchiv - NS26 / 471 Bd2

Lasttly the acronym a. d. I dont know... but most likely auf der