UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Opinions for these SA Marine Dagger. It'a a fake?

On one of Russian forums this dagger is discussed. At discussion many have noticed red flags. But nevertheless our knowledge in such rare subjects us does not suffice. I have offered the owner to discuss this dagger on this forum. Very much I hope to the aid in definition of , whether this dagger the original or a fake is.

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Everything looked good... until the photo of the inside of the crossguards. Many are getting hesitant on releasing this info "out in the open". However in this case it has been dicussed here.
On original type 2 SA "marine" with copper/gold wash fittings. The inside of the crossguards are still the Nickle color. The factory, to the best of my knowledge, did not plate the inside of the crossguards.
I would dismiss this dagger as being a "original SA marine".
Just my opinion.... -wagner-

Thanks Wagner!

Your Welcome Ilya.
Also a couple of other finer points. One had to do with color. On originals the color is more coppery since there was over 50% of the plating material was copper, if my memory serves me correct, the other half was brass.
Also the plating was not perfected and ALL originals that I had seen had some degree of flaking/peeling loss. This plating was applied very thinly and wore off very easily.
Here is a photo of a NSKK marine top crossguard
in my collection. -wagner-

Just a minute here !

Marine SA and Marine NSKK daggers can have copper plated fittings and that includes the inside of the crossguards. Probably also the insdes of the scabbard fittings. I say this because it is a specific question that I asked experienced guys at SOS.

Plating has to cover the entire piece as that is how electro plating is done. You cannot plate selective surfaces. "Washes" are brushed on and can be applied however one wishes. Plating is very durable - washes are not.


Please keep an open mind here as the marine daggers are not fully defined or agreed upon by all.

Dave

You could be right Dave. These are a real tough call.
I'll keep a open mind. One has too if your ever going to learn.
However, the "thick" plating and lack of any peeling, along with the color "tone" on this dagger is suspect to me. When compared to mine
which is a 1940 Eickhorn chained NSKK "marine".
But again that doesn't mean 100% that Ilya dagger is not correct. It could be from a very batch that was "period" producted, for only a very short time before going over to the finish
style that is "common" and accepted. I would like to see another example or two.
I know there are some members in here who have this particular type. Maybe we can get them in here. I know "colorado" had a very nice example of this type, but he hasn't posted in a while. I do think Wotan has one also. -wagner-

I think it makes a lot of sense that the whole thing (crossguards and shiny parts except the blade) would be electroplated and not brushed. The number 4 intrigues me as well. Easy to do but it does add to the daggers overall look. Whatever was done to make it look yellowish sure has held up very well. I have never seen one like that and I would love to see it in my hands to study under high magnification.

Not being familiar with the "marine daggers" this one is either very good or very bad. I wish I knew more about it/them.

Mark

Bear in mind, also, that there was no official Marine SA dagger during the period, and any SA dagger with gold or copper fittings or black handle and scabbard would have been worn in violation of regulations. It would be difficult because there were no "absolutes" or official criteria, so if these were intended as special Marine SA pieces, they would each be a 'one of' piece.
Erich

Wagner,

Can we see your Marine NSKK ?

Mark,

That "4" is the standard Eickhorn benchmark

Dave

HELLO-I JUST LOOKED AT A CHAINED NSKK THAT A VETS KID HAS.TO ME I BELIEVE IT IS REAL.THE KID WONT SELL IT JUST YET.THE INSIDES OF THE X-GUARDS ARE NOT GOLD.THANKS PAUL ZAYA

Dave
What do you mean saying that "4" is the standart Eick benchmark?
I've seen a lot examples be Eick with other digits.

Eickhorn used 0 thru 9 as a "benchmark" on some,but not all, of their political dagger crossguards. "4" would have been one of the standard benchmark numbers.
Jim

Dave,
I'm out of town for 2 weeks.
However when I return if you still want it then, I'll be glad to post some photos. -wagner-

Here is my NSKK Marine. Iam new to this forum so please bear with me. Let me know what you think.

NSKK Marine

NSKK Marine 3

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Welcome to the forum Randal!
The finish looks correct and proper to me. From the scabbard it looks like you have an Eickhorn 7/66 NKKK chained marine. Can you show the rest of it?
-wagner-

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Looks good so far...
Here a 1940

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Randal I believe your dagger is original from what I have seen. Anyone else? Looks very much like mine. You don't see these every day so why not post a few more shots? -wagner-

Thanks , the chains are RZM stamped and maker marked M3/23. I have a new camara, and still learning. I'll post more photos as soon as I can. Thanks again Randal.

Wagner, It seems that there are not many of these daggers around. Do you have any idea of value on daggers like these. thanks again Randal.

Wagner, That is one NICE Marine you've got there!!!
I agere with you, I too was under the impression that originals were NOT internally plated. It is clear that many period examples were not internally plated with the "gold", but now the question is; was that always the case? I do not know.
GREAT dagger you've got there! Congrats!

About the dagger that started this thread, I don't like it... sorry. Asside from being internally plated, the "gold" color is very GOLD< where as originals have a more "copper" color to them. Also the gold plating looks to have been done last week. It is pretty, but I don't think it is original.
JMHO,
Johnny

Randal, I'm not up on what the price range. I say a well worn example at the SOS for $3500, I've seen higher prices, just don't know what they are getting.

Thanks Johnny. When you see a real one in person and if it has most of it's original plating, they really look stunning. I need to take some better photos.
The 33 SA Type 2 Marine above looks to me that
looks like the crossguards were plated within the last 20 years. Just my opinion. I don't have one to compare it with. However "colorado"
has a real one, it's his avitar. Maybe he can pipe in ?
-wagner-

Original ones are very rare. On this forum, I saw the twin of mine about 7 years ago (before the server crash). Same maker and Gau. All fittings, eagle, buckle, clip are gilt. Supports my theory that certain companies put these out in very small custom orders within a certain Gau and not necessarily Marine as already stated.

And, as Wagner states, the plating is very fragile. Not real crazy about those other kind. Been offered boatloads for this one, and it is still in the collection.

Yes, to answer the question, this is my Avatar, always has been.