UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum enamel war merit cross

hello again,
I recently acquired this war merit cross with swords, and have not seen another like it (due to the enamel), i was hoping that someone had some input on it, hopefully including the rarity, and what this particular war merit cross was for. any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, John

Hi John, welcome to the site...
Well, I'd say theres a good chance theres a screw attachment stud to the back, yes?
Even if not, I'd say that its a fantasy piece from East Europe. Pieces like this were aplenty there 15 years ago or so.I've seen many very very similar in gift shops and bazzars in Poland and Ukraine..

Theres no known ,or even proposed piece such as this from the 3rd Reich period....

Hello Gaspare,
Thank you for the reply and information about the cross, and you were exactly right about the screw back. I just recently started collecting ww 1 and 2 militaria for a month ago and have only acquired three pieces that were not cheap (so i was led to believe) and this is my second fake! I am getting sick of this this, i paid $175 for that one, the only one that has not been labeled a fake or repro is an Eickhorn Soungen dagger and the way things are going I would'nt be suprised if that were some kind of replica as well. but i appreciate the help.


John

John, sorry to hear of this mis-fortune. There are many fakes and fantasy items around, and probably all collectors have been stung at some time or another, particularly those just starting. Don't be discouraged, but know what it is that you are buying - research first. Often, some money spent on a few recommended reference books on your chosen area of collecting will save you a lot in the long run. Avoid the exotic and highly priced stuff to begin with. Members of this forum are always willing to help those who need guidance or opinions. The GDC forum is a great reference area - have a look at the posts on items that you are interested in - you'll soon get a good feel for the basics and be able to compare real with fake/fantasy.

Hope this is of some help!

Regards

Russell

thanks for all of the help guys i confronted the seller and told him that i had an expert look at it and i asked him for a refund and this is what he wrote me :
"I believe that your "expert" is wrong about this medal...I know the source of it...and it is impossible that it is 20 or 30 years old. It came from the WWII era and IS authentic to that time period. I am NOT an expert on medals but this piece has been in a box for the last 60 plus years. Tell your expert to do some research on reproductions...the new ones are not of this quality nor of this detail and they should know that if their advice is worth its salt.
I put this matter to you with the following terms. I know the age of this piece....and I will leave it to you to prove to me to my satisfaction that this medal is infact a reproduction. If you can do that, I will consider your terms.

However, the burden of proof is with you and you have 2 days in which to prove your case. If you do not, on Friday morning this medal is being shipped off to you as a valid sale with no refunds.I will require photographic evidence as well as written backup to substantiate your claim.Please e-mail me when and if you have the evidence...if not...I hope you enjoy your authentic medal."

so my question is does anybody else have a picture of a medal like this if so it could save me a lot of money, and i would inturn be in debt to you. and i have no idea what he wants in his "written backup" but i guess all you guys are right there are more dishonest dealers out there than honest ones. I even told him i only wanted a 90% refund 10% for his trouble, and on top of tha he has not even shipped it yet and i have already paid for it.

The best investment you can make is reference books. There are a few threads in the forum that discuss the best books for the collector. I often say you should spend $500 on books before you spend a dollar on actual badges. Then, read then over and over again.

Also, post photos here of anything you're looking at for quick opinions before you buy, and only buy with no questions asked 100% money back guarantees. If they won't give you one, that tells you a lot.

Don't feel pressure to buy anything. There's lots of III Reich stuff out there, and when we're in a hurry to buy, that's when we all make mistakes in judgement. Beware "deals", rarities and prototypes - all indications of a scam.

Spend a lot of time on websites known to be selling fakes and study what they sell and what they look like. Everything under the sun is being faked with different degrees of accuracy. Pay attention to pin backs and other details, which is where a lot of fakers go wrong. (Like your screw backed badge - hardly anything real has a screw back.)

Beware people who "don't know anything about Nazi medals" but are selling them anyway on eBay or elsewhere. Look at what else they're selling. They know exactly what they have.

We all make mistakes, but doing the above makes it harder for someone to scam us.

Oh well looks like i may have to just bite the bullet on this one.

Man i love this site, i have never met any of you guys but it seems as though you are well known friends,and good people,
thanks for all the help fellas!

Mack, you'll never find a photo of this piece in ANY reference book. Nor will you find even a proposed drawing of the piece,,thats because its a fantasy piece. Switch it to him,,ask him to show YOU just one photo of it,,in ANY reference book written by anybody. And, that if he can you'll be happy to keep it..
It won't happen so bite your bullet and buy some reference books as member Stephen suggests. Theres a good list of what books to look to buy on this forum. check this link:
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/800097573/m/6040011573

.. Be careful and happy hunting.,G.

What's the law over there re selling fake items? Over here in Europe you could take legal action.

Plus if it was bought over the net, here in Europe there's a law which allows the return of any goods bought on the internet within 2 weeks of receiving them.

Cheers
Don

The law in Canada isn't much help. You'd have to go to small claims court, and even that costs too much and takes too much time.

In the US, they are much bigger on things like mail fraud and getting the authorities to help you. Otherwise people end up using some Texas-style "self-help" remedies.

In short, North America lags way behind Europe in remedies for small scale fraudsters, so assume you're on your own.

Did you pay by credit card? If so, I'd dispute the charge.

Its ok, there is nothing i can do, personally i am tired of argueing with the idiot! here is what he wrote the second go round:

"Hello
I cannot for the life of me understand why you think this is a piece of junk.
You will see what a quality piece it is shortly!
Also...the one thing I have learned about "experts" in this business that they do NOT know everything about everything!
If it was a "fantasy" piece as you are being told...then there would be many of them around and someone would have put them in a "reproduction" trade guide....TRUST ME...virtually everycollectible on the market that has been reproduced is now in a trade guide or on the internet!
Also...how can your "expert" explain that this piece has been in a box for 60 years? Did you tell them that? Do you think they were making "fantasy" pieces in 1946? Believe me...people were dealing with reality not fantasy then!
What you may have is a very rare piece or atleast an uncirculated piece in the collectors market today....It drew enough attention in just 2 days to get up to $100...can you imagine what it would have closed at?
Why don't you think of the possibilities rather than take as gospel what some collector says...use your own mind! Do your research for yourself...you may find that you have the better bargain after all!
P.S. If I were you, I would not let the "expert" make an offer on your piece to "take it off your hands"....some dealers will undervalue pieces on purpose in order to snatch up the bargains from the unsuspecting!"

It's hard to tell from the reply if he is an idiot or a crook. Those are the only two options.

I vote crook. Welcome to TR collecting, you will find a lot of good people on this Forum who want to help new collectors.

I vote Both!

John, how was the medal described by the seller - what did he call it? You say it was a war merit cross with swords? If this guy described it as that, you need only show him photographic evidence of the real war merit cross with swords, supply him pics in reference books etc, and you may beat him at his own game.

Regards

Russell

That is exactly how he described it, a "enamelen war merit cross with swords " i guess its partially my own dumbass fault though, like i said this was to be my third Third Reich piece, i have only been collecting for about a month and a half, and i should have done better research, or i wish i would have stumbled onto this wonderful site before i purchased, there was only about a four day gap there by the way, And besides its like all of you experienced collectors say, Spend the money on ther reference materials, and the books, they may be slightly expensive, but it should prevent another unfortunate event like this. I guess i should see this as a lesson to be learned, and better $175 than $1750.

I suppose that it's up to you whether or not to pursue it or take it as a learning experience. He does admit that he is "not a medal expert". I don't know the laws over there but I'm sure a small claims tribunal or something would see it your way, if armed with reference material written by people with more expertise than himself.

IMO he's left himself open to plenty of challenges:

"I am NOT an expert on medals but this piece has been in a box for the last 60 plus years."

"...the new ones are not of this quality nor of this detail" Ask him to show you a new one as he's obviously seen one.

"What you may have is a very rare piece or atleast an uncirculated piece in the collectors market today...." He obviously doesn't know anything about this item, so how can he claim it is authentic?

"Why don't you think of the possibilities rather than take as gospel what some collector says...use your own mind" If it was real as he claims, there are no possibilities, only realities.

"you may find that you have the better bargain after all!" He left out "but I doubt it..."

"If I were you, I would not let the "expert" make an offer on your piece to "take it off your hands"....some dealers will undervalue pieces on purpose in order to snatch up the bargains from the unsuspecting!" This is obviously what he does.

Regards

Russell

Since we're talking about it, here is a real War Service Cross - in German it is "Kriegsverdienstkreuz". See that it is a completely different shape, with angled arms, not curved. The swastika is in an oak wreath and the sword hilts are a completely different shape.

Even if you enamelled this baby, it would look nothing like the fake / fanasty badge. Have the seller open a book and tell you why he thinks it looks anything like this. Let him show a single period photo of one in wear.

(Image from: http://e-militaria.com/catalog/germany_third_reich/Army..._swds_L15/index.html. Price $250).

As for being in a box for 60 years, I can tell from the photo that it is made with epoxy enamel, which is a modern technique and will melt at temperature. Any WWII period enamel is baked and hard, and doesn't sink in they way this does. I'd be curious to see if there are any markings on the back or the screw plate. Often these Polish-made modern fakes have something ridiculous like "Berlin 1939" on the plate or back.

By the way, if your seller thinks you got such a great deal, no doubt he'll be happy to take it back and sell it for more...

Who is this seller we would like to meet him me thinks

PAUL

Well Ruski makes alot of good points you just shot his whole argument to swiss cheese, thanks for the argumentative positions i brought most of those points to his attention, and frankly i'm getting tired of argueing with the fool.

Thanks to Gold Party pin guy for the link to an excellent store and thanks also for the post of the real war merit.

He is just some guy who is a medium size ebay seller, this is the only military or supposed military item that he had. I have his name and email address if you want that, but i will have to search my records for his ebay handle, the way it went down is i noticed the item on ebay, about three hours later ebay cancelled the auction due to conflict of ebay policy or some bull****, then i contacted him and he told me:
"Why don't you make me a fair offer for the medal...It really is in great shape and I know that it is a higher end piece.If you offer is fair, I will consider it"
so i offered him $75 then his response was that that was not a fair price so he said $105.50 plus shipping and like a fool i agreed. but if you want the info i will be happy to get it for you.

P.S. in an earlier post i stated that i paid $175 for the medal that was the incorrect amount, When i started my collection (only 3 pieces not counting a small arsenal of firearms which i will be posting pictures of at a later date) i started keeping a ledger of sorts and the amount of $175 was for a piece of luftwaffe china , so my apoligies for the mistake, i was looking at the wrong column, and it has been about a week and a half or two weeks since the transaction was initiated.

In retrospect the luftwaffe china is a beautiful piece and can't be fake and in my opinion was well worth the money!

Mackadoo..unfortunately, getting burned the first few times out can put a damper on the enthusiasm for collecting..sometimes it drives people out of the hobby all together.

As with all the fellows here, their combined knowledge is worth the investment in a membership, and it is a great online resource guide.

If you ever have a problem, please feel free to contact me and i will do my best to help..

www.kurskmilitaria.com

And don't foreget there are always a few good pieces for sale here on the forum bazaar from some great members

PAUL

OK now i'm starting to think that i really got ripped, it has been about three weeks since i paid for this piece of **** and I havent recieved it!

I know its just junk but I still paid alot for it!

What's happened in the last fortnight? Did you get it or your money back?

well unfortunately the answer to your question lies in the top left corner of the picture that I posted for this thread..............

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6740015654/m/2650053794

and thinking about it, it might have even been a good thing in a way, this purchase made me aware of the immense amount of fakes and repro's out there!