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#78549 11/18/2008 04:36 AM
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I have not seen this maker mark before on a SA and was wondering where it ranks on the rareity scale.
Thanks Dow

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#78550 11/18/2008 04:36 AM
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2nd

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#78551 11/18/2008 04:37 AM
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3rd

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#78552 11/18/2008 04:59 AM
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Dow donít have a rarity scale but I would say fairly common. The grips usually have a varnish on them. I own one and itís a quality dagger. They also made medical instruments.


Collecting Interests - Heer Daggers - Waffenrock - Portraits - http://WW2-Collector.com
#78553 11/18/2008 09:11 AM
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yes the grips are usually varnished and of a dark brown color.
AESCULAP is considered a somewhat common maker.
One of the few companies that are still in business today. As Tom mentioned, still making quality medical instruments.

-serge-

#78554 11/18/2008 09:56 AM
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DOW,
I,m afraid that,s classified information!!!
Regards JOHN

#78555 11/18/2008 02:04 PM
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Very good LEGS- you are now officially in charge of noting that every time someone requests a McSARR value. MJM

#78556 11/18/2008 03:17 PM
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Will my promotion appear on Company Orders?
Regards JOHN.
End of banter.

#78557 11/18/2008 10:11 PM
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Some folks watch too many James Bond movies.

#78558 11/19/2008 06:03 PM
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Mr LEGS, stop that and check your PM. Mike McAlvanah

#78559 11/19/2008 08:01 PM
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What is a PM and where would one find it?
Regards JOHN

#78560 11/19/2008 08:25 PM
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Personal Message-check on your LEGS name and then personal message on the next screen-MJM

#78561 11/19/2008 09:01 PM
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Many thanks.
Regards JOHN

#78562 11/21/2008 03:41 AM
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I agree with Serge the grips are usually dark brown-varnished.


Collecting Interests - Heer Daggers - Waffenrock - Portraits - http://WW2-Collector.com
#78563 11/21/2008 03:44 AM
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Old pic of mine.


Collecting Interests - Heer Daggers - Waffenrock - Portraits - http://WW2-Collector.com
#78564 11/21/2008 04:04 AM
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Most of theirs are birch from the surrounding forest(a naturally light colored wood) then stained dark and varnished. Mike

#78565 11/22/2008 03:28 PM
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I went through my own channels and found out that the maker mark on this SA ranks 13 out of 1000 as compared to Eickhorn 52 out of 1000. Although this mark is not rare it is not common either.

#78566 11/22/2008 05:12 PM
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I dont know what you mean-If you are saying that 13 out of every 1000 early SAs are Aesculap, you are incorrect. If you are saying that 52 out of every 1000 early SAs are Eick, you are incorrect to an even greater magnitude. These figures, which you have taken from Fisher, have no basis in reality, and were taken from the air. Mike

#78567 11/23/2008 06:07 PM
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Mike,
Can you let us know what statistical data you are basing your decision that Dow's and Fisher's information is incorrect. Could you please direct the users of this site to a more reliable, and statiticly sound, source of SA dagger rarity ratings. This would help us all better determine the rarity of these daggers.

Until I have a better source to pull from, I will continue to use Fisher's data. I looked up these two makers in question in my set of Fisher's and unless I am reading it incorrectly, I came up with the same ratity numbers as Dow references.


Thanks, Blademan

#78568 11/23/2008 08:55 PM
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Dr. Mike, sending you an email Wink
Bret Van Sant

I can add that the 52 out of 1000 is indeed way off base for the Eick numbers. BVS

#78569 11/23/2008 09:26 PM
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quote:
Most of theirs are birch from the surrounding forest(a naturally light colored wood) then stained dark and varnished. Mike


Gee does this mean that the "blonde" SA dagger are all humped up. Wink IMO YEP!

#78570 11/23/2008 11:33 PM
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I would be very suspicious of a blonde Aesculap-Mike

#78571 11/23/2008 11:44 PM
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My point was if several dagger makers had to dye, varnish the grips brown, WHY would there ever be an issued "blonde" grip?

#78572 11/24/2008 03:16 AM
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So we went from a maker mark question to the validity of the grip. For grins and giggles I took the dagger apart and the unseen wood is a light color their too it also passed the black light test. So the experts out their have never seen a blond/pear color SA grip? This is the 3rd one I have seen and one of them was a RZM SA with a tiger stripe blond grip. Back to the maker mark question awhile back their used to be a SA rarity maker mark list that was posted here on this forum. But it disappeared like a lot of other good stuff on GDC. For those of you who are interested in castor marks this one is P.A.
Have a nice day boy's

#78573 11/24/2008 03:57 AM
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Blademan,

I don't know if you realize this but Mike McAlvanah has the best rarity scale for SA's to date. You can purchase "The McSARR List" from Mike and the proceeds help support this site. It's a tremendous asset for SA collectors. I never leave home without it!

Thanks for always sharing your knowledge Mike!

#78574 11/24/2008 02:30 PM
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Thank you Mikee
There are only 2 general categories of knowledge in trying to ascertain the relative frequency of Early SA maker mark occurence, "a priori" and "post priori"A priori could occur if someone can find a note sent to or from SA Headquarters, dated around 1937, saying, in effect- "We have completed the first phase of SA dagger production, and henceforth all SAs will be stamped with the appropriate RZM number on the blade and utilize a painted scabbard. Our figures for the manufacture of all previous SAs are: Eickhorn XXXXXX, Pack XXXXXX etc, etc." This would be ideal as we would know the total of each maker mark company. Unfortunately this info has not yet come to light. It still could happen, but one could wait forever and not realize its fruition.
The second type of frequency analysis involves post priori evaluation. Here one also draws opinions from knowledge, but here long after the the dates of manufacture. This involves recording the relative frequency of Early SA dagger sightings, then tabulating and presenting this relative frequency of occurrence. There are some intrinsic errors potential in this analysis- for example, suppose daggers from East Germany were restricted in their exposure to the collecting community, would this lower the sightings of daggers manufactured there? There are many other examples of potential discrepancies too numerous to mention here. It took 23 years of collecting sightings to produce the first McSARR list in 2002. Info collection has continued and the final listing will be out in a few months.
John Fisher's work is monumental and of immense value- indeed I was a contributor to several of the early editions. But I do think a question can be raised as to his estimations on frequency-they are guesstimates at best-for example Eickhorn's total manufacture of 52,000 and frequency of 52/1000 is very dubious- this would imply a total manufacture of Early SAs of only one million-there were 2 1/2 million SA members in 1934 and I believe they were all clamoring for their daggers. Production continued until 36- 37, time for many, many more to be produced. There are many other factors at work here and i would be glad to discuss them, as time permits, with the members.Mike

#78575 11/24/2008 02:53 PM
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In regards to the other statements: Blademan, you may use any references you wish- just some will be more accurate than others.
Dow-I'm glad the "channels" you chose to use did not require any more ambition than opening up John Fisher"s book. I'm sorry I could not answer your question last night but I was wasting 3+ hours working on the McSARR revision. I dont know about the experts but I have seen HUNDREDS of blonde SA grips- just not too many from Aesculap. Your grip may well be 100% right, it just may not have been mated to this blade in Tuttlingen, perhaps in a foreign country like Estonia or California. People do switch grips I assume you know. Yes I do know of the rarity maker list, but it was never printed here in full, only maker by maker when some member chose to reveal it-We have asked that not be done because we sell copies of the list for the benefit of GDC. Incidentally, I have never failed to tell a McSARR value to someone who requested it by phone, email or in person-just not for general listing on this site. You must learn to walk before you can run. You cannot write a book if you cannot read. Mike McAlvanah

#78576 11/24/2008 06:57 PM
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Hi Mike can you tell me why you removed my post.without an explanation. nats

www.stan-the-man.tk

#78577 11/24/2008 07:48 PM
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Thank you nats, I'm more used to writing the other type of "pleural"-Mike

#78578 11/24/2008 09:03 PM
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Hi Mike,thanks,I'am having lung problems myself.
Heres an Aesculap SA I have you can see the light coloured grip underneath the peeling varnish,nats

www.stan-the-man.tk

Aeschulap-Tuttlingen-SA-Bac.jpg (18.37 KB, 311 downloads)
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#78579 11/24/2008 09:15 PM
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Very good example of the varnish and the birch, as the GREAT majority of Aesculap were of this type-MJM

#78580 11/24/2008 09:18 PM
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Here is a super uncleaned unmessed with by Aesculap.

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#78581 11/24/2008 09:19 PM
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#78582 11/24/2008 09:19 PM
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#78583 11/24/2008 10:45 PM
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I've owned quite a few Aesculaps over the years, probably because of the mark (I remember I had 5 at once on one occasion) and they all have been the dark brown and varnish variety. Very nice dagger Darth. Mike

#78584 11/25/2008 03:33 AM
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That is one beautiful blade AND grip. Very nice. Top drawer material.

Mark Cool

#78585 11/25/2008 06:08 AM
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That is a very nice example.

#78586 12/04/2008 10:13 PM
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Here my Aesculap twins with matching lacquered grips, which I purchased quite some time ago.

Mike, are you sure about Aesculap and the grips made of birch tree? Iīm wondering because birch trees are very rare in Southern Germany, especially around Tuttlingen. Birch trees are very common in northern Germany. The area of Tuttlingen is more known for beech and oak trees or of course for fir and pine trees as Tuttlingen is very close to the black forrest.

Aesculap_grips.jpg (107.84 KB, 273 downloads)
#78587 12/04/2008 10:17 PM
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I agree completely with Mike that Aesculap daggers must have a dark lacquered grip. There are minor variations in the darkness of the varnish, however a blonde grip on an Aesculap dagger is for sure a red flag for me.

DSC00014.JPG (56.61 KB, 272 downloads)
#78588 12/05/2008 12:37 PM
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Wow, what a great picture! Are those all yours? Fantastic-Mike

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