#78549
11/18/2008 04:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1 |
I have not seen this maker mark before on a SA and was wondering where it ranks on the rareity scale. Thanks Dow
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#78550
11/18/2008 04:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1 |
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#78551
11/18/2008 04:37 AM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1 |
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#78552
11/18/2008 04:59 AM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
Dow don�t have a rarity scale but I would say fairly common. The grips usually have a varnish on them. I own one and it�s a quality dagger. They also made medical instruments.
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#78553
11/18/2008 09:11 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,616 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,616 Likes: 1 |
yes the grips are usually varnished and of a dark brown color. AESCULAP is considered a somewhat common maker. One of the few companies that are still in business today. As Tom mentioned, still making quality medical instruments.
-serge-
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#78554
11/18/2008 09:56 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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DOW, I,m afraid that,s classified information!!! Regards JOHN
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#78555
11/18/2008 02:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
Very good LEGS- you are now officially in charge of noting that every time someone requests a McSARR value. MJM
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#78556
11/18/2008 03:17 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Will my promotion appear on Company Orders? Regards JOHN. End of banter.
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#78557
11/18/2008 10:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1 |
Some folks watch too many James Bond movies.
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#78558
11/19/2008 06:03 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
Mr LEGS, stop that and check your PM. Mike McAlvanah
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#78559
11/19/2008 08:01 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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What is a PM and where would one find it? Regards JOHN
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#78560
11/19/2008 08:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
Personal Message-check on your LEGS name and then personal message on the next screen-MJM
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#78561
11/19/2008 09:01 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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#78562
11/21/2008 03:41 AM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
I agree with Serge the grips are usually dark brown-varnished.
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#78563
11/21/2008 03:44 AM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
Old pic of mine.
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#78564
11/21/2008 04:04 AM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
Most of theirs are birch from the surrounding forest(a naturally light colored wood) then stained dark and varnished. Mike
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#78565
11/22/2008 03:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1 |
I went through my own channels and found out that the maker mark on this SA ranks 13 out of 1000 as compared to Eickhorn 52 out of 1000. Although this mark is not rare it is not common either.
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#78566
11/22/2008 05:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
I dont know what you mean-If you are saying that 13 out of every 1000 early SAs are Aesculap, you are incorrect. If you are saying that 52 out of every 1000 early SAs are Eick, you are incorrect to an even greater magnitude. These figures, which you have taken from Fisher, have no basis in reality, and were taken from the air. Mike
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#78567
11/23/2008 06:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 498
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 498 |
Mike, Can you let us know what statistical data you are basing your decision that Dow's and Fisher's information is incorrect. Could you please direct the users of this site to a more reliable, and statiticly sound, source of SA dagger rarity ratings. This would help us all better determine the rarity of these daggers.
Until I have a better source to pull from, I will continue to use Fisher's data. I looked up these two makers in question in my set of Fisher's and unless I am reading it incorrectly, I came up with the same ratity numbers as Dow references.
Thanks, Blademan
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#78568
11/23/2008 08:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072 |
Dr. Mike, sending you an email Bret Van Sant I can add that the 52 out of 1000 is indeed way off base for the Eick numbers. BVS
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#78569
11/23/2008 09:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654 |
quote: Most of theirs are birch from the surrounding forest(a naturally light colored wood) then stained dark and varnished. Mike
Gee does this mean that the "blonde" SA dagger are all humped up. IMO YEP!
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#78570
11/23/2008 11:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
I would be very suspicious of a blonde Aesculap-Mike
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#78571
11/23/2008 11:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654 |
My point was if several dagger makers had to dye, varnish the grips brown, WHY would there ever be an issued "blonde" grip?
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#78572
11/24/2008 03:16 AM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1
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OP
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1 |
So we went from a maker mark question to the validity of the grip. For grins and giggles I took the dagger apart and the unseen wood is a light color their too it also passed the black light test. So the experts out their have never seen a blond/pear color SA grip? This is the 3rd one I have seen and one of them was a RZM SA with a tiger stripe blond grip. Back to the maker mark question awhile back their used to be a SA rarity maker mark list that was posted here on this forum. But it disappeared like a lot of other good stuff on GDC. For those of you who are interested in castor marks this one is P.A. Have a nice day boy's
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#78573
11/24/2008 03:57 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 40
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 40 |
Blademan,
I don't know if you realize this but Mike McAlvanah has the best rarity scale for SA's to date. You can purchase "The McSARR List" from Mike and the proceeds help support this site. It's a tremendous asset for SA collectors. I never leave home without it!
Thanks for always sharing your knowledge Mike!
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#78574
11/24/2008 02:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
Thank you Mikee There are only 2 general categories of knowledge in trying to ascertain the relative frequency of Early SA maker mark occurence, "a priori" and "post priori"A priori could occur if someone can find a note sent to or from SA Headquarters, dated around 1937, saying, in effect- "We have completed the first phase of SA dagger production, and henceforth all SAs will be stamped with the appropriate RZM number on the blade and utilize a painted scabbard. Our figures for the manufacture of all previous SAs are: Eickhorn XXXXXX, Pack XXXXXX etc, etc." This would be ideal as we would know the total of each maker mark company. Unfortunately this info has not yet come to light. It still could happen, but one could wait forever and not realize its fruition. The second type of frequency analysis involves post priori evaluation. Here one also draws opinions from knowledge, but here long after the the dates of manufacture. This involves recording the relative frequency of Early SA dagger sightings, then tabulating and presenting this relative frequency of occurrence. There are some intrinsic errors potential in this analysis- for example, suppose daggers from East Germany were restricted in their exposure to the collecting community, would this lower the sightings of daggers manufactured there? There are many other examples of potential discrepancies too numerous to mention here. It took 23 years of collecting sightings to produce the first McSARR list in 2002. Info collection has continued and the final listing will be out in a few months. John Fisher's work is monumental and of immense value- indeed I was a contributor to several of the early editions. But I do think a question can be raised as to his estimations on frequency-they are guesstimates at best-for example Eickhorn's total manufacture of 52,000 and frequency of 52/1000 is very dubious- this would imply a total manufacture of Early SAs of only one million-there were 2 1/2 million SA members in 1934 and I believe they were all clamoring for their daggers. Production continued until 36- 37, time for many, many more to be produced. There are many other factors at work here and i would be glad to discuss them, as time permits, with the members.Mike
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#78575
11/24/2008 02:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
In regards to the other statements: Blademan, you may use any references you wish- just some will be more accurate than others. Dow-I'm glad the "channels" you chose to use did not require any more ambition than opening up John Fisher"s book. I'm sorry I could not answer your question last night but I was wasting 3+ hours working on the McSARR revision. I dont know about the experts but I have seen HUNDREDS of blonde SA grips- just not too many from Aesculap. Your grip may well be 100% right, it just may not have been mated to this blade in Tuttlingen, perhaps in a foreign country like Estonia or California. People do switch grips I assume you know. Yes I do know of the rarity maker list, but it was never printed here in full, only maker by maker when some member chose to reveal it-We have asked that not be done because we sell copies of the list for the benefit of GDC. Incidentally, I have never failed to tell a McSARR value to someone who requested it by phone, email or in person-just not for general listing on this site. You must learn to walk before you can run. You cannot write a book if you cannot read. Mike McAlvanah
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#78576
11/24/2008 06:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,970
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,970 |
Hi Mike can you tell me why you removed my post.without an explanation. nats www.stan-the-man.tk
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#78577
11/24/2008 07:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
Thank you nats, I'm more used to writing the other type of "pleural"-Mike
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#78578
11/24/2008 09:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,970
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,970 |
Hi Mike,thanks,I'am having lung problems myself. Heres an Aesculap SA I have you can see the light coloured grip underneath the peeling varnish,nats www.stan-the-man.tk
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#78579
11/24/2008 09:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
Very good example of the varnish and the birch, as the GREAT majority of Aesculap were of this type-MJM
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#78580
11/24/2008 09:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654 |
Here is a super uncleaned unmessed with by Aesculap.
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#78581
11/24/2008 09:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654 |
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#78582
11/24/2008 09:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654 |
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#78583
11/24/2008 10:45 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
I've owned quite a few Aesculaps over the years, probably because of the mark (I remember I had 5 at once on one occasion) and they all have been the dark brown and varnish variety. Very nice dagger Darth. Mike
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#78584
11/25/2008 03:33 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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That is one beautiful blade AND grip. Very nice. Top drawer material. Mark
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#78585
11/25/2008 06:08 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,616 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,616 Likes: 1 |
That is a very nice example.
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#78586
12/04/2008 10:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801 |
Here my Aesculap twins with matching lacquered grips, which I purchased quite some time ago.
Mike, are you sure about Aesculap and the grips made of birch tree? I�m wondering because birch trees are very rare in Southern Germany, especially around Tuttlingen. Birch trees are very common in northern Germany. The area of Tuttlingen is more known for beech and oak trees or of course for fir and pine trees as Tuttlingen is very close to the black forrest.
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#78587
12/04/2008 10:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801 |
I agree completely with Mike that Aesculap daggers must have a dark lacquered grip. There are minor variations in the darkness of the varnish, however a blonde grip on an Aesculap dagger is for sure a red flag for me.
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#78588
12/05/2008 12:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,292 Likes: 1 |
Wow, what a great picture! Are those all yours? Fantastic-Mike
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