UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum How good are the Fakers getting at faking Daggers?

Jesper my friend !
PM sent.

Mais ouix, Pat - but the spotted fakies were only spottet before they were bought.

Right ?

So my point is that a collector that HAS bought a fake would be reluctant to show it here.

Right ?

AND my point is that there are MANY people who don't now ANYTHING about daggers - and buy them because they THINK they are original.

Right ?

Bonjour a voux, Monsieur Vialle

Jesper


PS: Let's get ourselves a new thread - a competition - with the best faked daggers

The fact that an inexperienced collector has bought a faked dagger, doesn't mean that it is a perfect fake.
An experienced collector would have been able to tell the difference and this is why I'm saying that the perfect dagger DOESN'T EXIST.
We are seeing hundreds of daggers being shown on the forum and we always can tell if they are real or not.
I will agree that sometimes it is difficult to tell, especially in high end blades, but a hand inspection will reveal the truth.....GUARANTEED !

Pat, I don't know, but the "Classic Fake" Pack Rohm you posted here and at MCF sure looks exceptional to me if it is a fake. The Rohm dedication looks off to me, but the more experienced collectors like Ron, Dave and even Bruce Petrin are not completely convinced, so I am inclined to withold my judgement in favour of the seasoned collectors.

If it is a classic fake as you pointed out, it would be near perfect... As a few guys have already mentioned, an experienced collector can spot a high-end fake, but the amount of true authorities in this field of collecting is actually quite small, so yes, collectors like Ron & Houston etc. will have little trouble, but for many of us its not so simple...

BTW, I have handled a few early Attwood daggers, I don't own any, but the ones I have seen were excellent, also given that they are not true fakes but rather post war mix, I think they fool a lot of folks...

Red

The bottom line is that a perfect faked dagger to "us" is NOT perfect.

To others the faked daggers are perfect.

Jesper

I will agree that they will fool many collectors and myself included.
Concerning that classic fake E.Pack that I have posted, a hand inspection would reveal without any doubts if it is authentic or not.
Like I have said, some are really hard call but we are only seeing them through pics which isn't always the best test.
That said, obvious flaws are always easy to spot and in some cases, you will need a hand inspection but at the end, you will always get the truth.
My thread wasn't against the fact that a faked dagger is getting better but I was merely debating that fact that this so called "perfect fake" theory is wrong, false and detrimental to the hobby, as it will scare away the new collectors.

Jesper , i don't get your logic on this.

So if an unexperienced collector buys a fake.He can't tell an original from a fake, so he thinks he has a perfect dagger...So this dagger is now the "perfect fake" dagger as long as he doesn't show it to someone experienced???

And you say that a collector that has bought a fake would be reluctant to show it here...
Well, how does he know it is a fake then??
Did he know it was a fake when he bought it?
Did he show it to someone that told him it was a fake??And he didn't want a second opinion by someone experienced,so he doesn't post it on a forum to learn about it?

So now this collector has a perfect fake, as long as nobody else sees it??

Sorry , but i don't get this "perfect fake" theory.

The "perfect fake" is only perfect in the unexperienced collectors universe,and not anywhere else.So there is no perfect fake dagger.I've seen that on this forum over the years i have been a member.Daggers that looked good to me,were ripped apart by the dagger "gurus" in less that a week, and i learn something new every time i browse this fabolous forum.Long live GDC

Ulf the realistic

I think we all agree - we are just going around in circles

Jesper

Nope, i'm going in ovals.



Ulf.

Pat,

Proof is not limited to pictures and foto's.

Buy a good book about the "Theory of chances" and/or "Statistics" and read it through, it will prove you for 100% that the current availability of "super rare daggers" is simply impossible, period!

If you want to see pictures of perfect copies, just go to the websites of the people who run this hobby/business. Ron has said it himself earlier in this treat: "...Yes, some dealers will sell a fake one now and then..." If they only sell a fake �now and then�, what do you think they will prefer to sell: ones a fake 300$ HJ knife or ones a 15000$ fake Himmler? The answer is obvious, no?

I guess you are asking for proof again?
Well here it is: the top dealers you named here are selling so called HJ N�rnberg knifes "now and then". Years ago EVERYONE in the hobby agreed that these knifes were complete fakes: all shiny mint, bagged pieces. A decade later the same people who run the hobby are selling them for real TR items (about 1000$ a piece) because now they look perfect with some patina... Of course now the reaction will be again �I have bought some real HJ N�rnberg knifes directly from vets�� OK, we know these magical words that turn all questionable pieces into real TR stuff. And off course, here proof is never asked for�

The biggest problem with this hobby is: the ones who become rich with this business are the same ones who define (dictate!) which stuff is real and which in not! End of story!

Everywhere where serious money is involved, hypocorism and fraud are never far away...

Best greetings,


Herman


PS: The reason why the simple SA dagger was not yet perfectly copied is explained at the beginning of this topic: not enough money involved... yet

Talking about fakes - what do you think of this ground R�hm?

Personally I think it's been redone...

Jesper

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From what I see, I tend to agree.

We've already killed that one.
Very well done but still easily recognizable.
Not yet that perfect fake.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/477091573/m/6490038444

Herr Mann,

I do not want to be cynical about it but why do we collect any daggers at all if we cannot prove without any doubts if a dagger is real or fake ?
I see that you like to collect DLV/NSFK's flyer's knifes. Why do we collect if we cannot prove that they are authentic ?
That's a pretty scary question but nonetheless, very important for anyone that believes that perfect fakes are out there !
I for one, would be pretty worried if this would be the case.

How can anyone prove that my daggers are real or yours for that matter if we cannot prove it ?
Do you see where I'm getting !
If this is true, then we are all fools as nobody can prove that our daggers ain't just perfect fakes.
I for one would definitively quite the hobby if this was the case.

Pat,

That is the real challenge of being a collector!

Any collector has to face and manage these "possible copy" risks: art, antique furniture, coins, stamps ...etc. are all copied close to perfection. The higher the value of a piece and the lower the complexity of its fabrication, the higher its "possible copy" risk.
Several years ago, I was invited to an auction of French and Italian antique furniture (18-19 century) at Sotheby's London. I know nothing about these marble tables and gilded-bronze statues, but I was impressed by the beauty of certain objects. When I looked at the exposed pieces, I noticed that certain objects were dated, but other similar ones were not???

When I asked my friend and host (who manages several antique shops in Europe) what this meant, he told me "...the ones without a date are copies for sure, the ones with a date have a fair chance of being originals..." Later, after the auction when we were drinking some wine, he added: "... any furniture that enters my shops becomes real antique thanks to my top reputation, but of course I must keep my greed under control, I cannot sell too much similar pieces, otherwise the prices would simply crash and my reputation could be questioned...". He had just bought several pieces of �antique� with no date mentioned when exposed, but which were displayed in the famous Sotheby�s catalogue, of which a full box stood next to our table� My fried added "This catalogue is priceless, all the items that are displayed in it ones, cannot be questioned anymore..."

Do you see the similarities with our hobby?

Personally I manage this risk by staying away from the "super rare" stuff, specially the ones where adding a simple etch multiplies the pieces value times 5 or even times 10! Collecting the more common or the more complex to produce daggers reduces the "possible copy" risk significantly. I also almost never buy from dealers anymore.

But I agree with you Pat, even with simple DLV-NSFK knifes, there is an important "possible copy" risk... But that adds to the fun of collecting in my opinion!


Best greetings,

Herman

This subject is always interesting and controversial. Most collectors I know are very concerned about fakery. They avoid certain items that are generally believed to have been faithfully reproduced, and try to be a conservative as they can in making purchases, especially of big ticket items. I dont think I have ever met a collector who isnt concerned about fakes. Dealers, on the other hand, almost never publicly express concern about fakes. I do not intend to be critical of the comments of anyone involved in this thread, I respect the opinions of all concerned. However, It is my observation that most dealers rarely admit to being concerned about fakes.

Anything that was made in the Third Reich can be reproduced exactly today. With the exception of certain materials or processes that are illegal or hard to get, such as cyanide used in fire gilding, ANYTHING can be reproduced if the return is high enough. There are LOTS of skilled craftsmen in Eastern Europe and Asia who can make anything and do it very well and do it a lot cheaper than we realize.
Some "facts" that are hard to deny:
Right after WWII the tooling and parts and workmen were all present to continue production of Third Reich items, which were in demand as souvenirs. No doubt, workers in the various factories did a little moonlighting to put food on the table.
Dies and tooling and molds, etc that were made in the 30's and 40's could just as easily be made in the 60's or 70's. To say they could not is just not rational.
There is more than just a little variation in the manufacture of most original Third REich relics. Therfore, it is almost impossible to say with certainty that origianls were all done this way or not done that way. There are some well known exceptions, of course, such as the RZM mark on the obverse of SA blades, which most collectors believe was never done on originals. Most collectors have not pulled enough relics out of footlockers to be able to say "I know this type is good and I know that type of (dagger, medal, etc) is bad based on Vet purchases". I have purchased many third Reich medals directly from vets and went into the attic to retrieve the footlockers and had dealers and collectors tell me "this isnt right or that isnt right.

If we could use a majic magnet to pull all the fakes out of a large militaria show, there would be a lot of long faces, (and very few Knights Crosses). It all boils down to consumer confidence. Do your homework and dont let your desire to obtain a rare item cloud your judgment as to its authenticity . The best way to lean if an item is good or not is to buy it then try to sell it. You will then find out in great detail everything that is wrong with it. Just my opinion, for what its worth .Joe S.

I haven't observed a distinct pattern of reproductions getting any better to the pointg of being virtually indistinguishable. On the contrary, they are actually getting worse. Consider the quality of copies that were made in the 60s and compare those to the the stuff of the 70s and 80s.
Sure, its possible that some indivudual item shows up that can fool many but they are very rare.
Since I'm not a medal collector and use medals mainly to accompany a dagger display, I don't mind good replica medals and badges. And I also don't pay a lot for those, good or bad. Given my inexperience with medals, I wouldn't even consider investing in those.
The bottom line here is that good replicas are a 'good thing' for people like myself.