UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum opinions on summer A-SS visor cap

Hallo gentlemen, I need your opinion on this cap.

k.regards, fabio

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Fabio,,,I guess before any opinions on this cap are sought could you tell the forum who if he is a dealer and approx how much,maybe within a $5000, the seller wants for the item [I suppose you have his permission to post his images on the forum],,,bear in mind that the summer issue white ASS cap only had a production period of 6 months! Depending on the price and the seller you should get your answer from that,,

I will post a bit more info on one of these summer caps when time permits,,,

good insignia, bad cap

Is there an RZM tag? Considering that it's RZM marked on the sweatband, I'd think it would have an oilcloth RZM tag under the band. It's possible that officer's caps weren't so-marked, but wouldn't the underside of the visor be RZM marked as well? Also, wouldn't a cap like this more likely be a private purchase item, instead of RZM issue, ESPECIALLY for an officer? I LIKE the way the sweatband is flat against the cap, but that only proves the sweatband is probably old. I'm not crazy about the texture of the white wool. How about better CLOSEUP pics of the cap with better lighting? I admit I'm much more familiar with enlisted visors, so the real experts need to chime in. If you're considering buying it, I'd say - Due to the extreme rarity of a cap like this, unless someone VERY knowledgable comes forward with praise for it, I'd recommend buying a more common, generic black SS visor that will cost less, and is MUCH more likely to be real. Besides, white SS caps were only worn to identify SS officers who were virgins.

Hello,

I'm trying to learn about visors. Just last night I was reading Headgear of Hitler's Germany, volume 4, more specifically the chapter on white topped SS caps.

Just a couple of quotes, it says on page 96: "The only manufacturer officially allowed to produce this visor was H R�mer of Neu-Ulm and should be market with the regulation RZM identifying mark as well as SS abbreviation" and on page 97: "the RZM tag should be positioned at the cap's left side beneath the sweat band".

My conclusion is that Alfred M�lle was not an authorized maker of these caps.

So here you go, you know as much as I do now.

Cap manufactured arround 70'

the insignia are not good....spesially that "monkey "face skull....... the only skull that has a face that can remind me of this face is a early 52 skull(gesh.gesh)...and this one looks like it is made of brass......not alum or sink.

they are even to dump to get the names right on the phony stamp ... M�ller ...

Older fake--probably 70's. Any time you see these ink-stamped "RZM" markings on an alleged TR visor, run, don't walk.

LET US KNOW WHO IS OFFERING THIS JUNK. ANY DEALER WHO IS NOT AWARE THAT THIS IS A POORLY MADE PIECE OF 4TH REICH KA KA IS NOT SOMEONE YOU WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH.

thank you very much for opinions. the cap comes from an online auction on italian ebay.
I ask opinions just because I am not such an expert in summer caps and from some point of view this cap seems to have some positive points.
But you appreciated ocnsiderations has helped me a lot.

thanks.
fabio

Yep,,,there lies your answer,who on earth would be tempted to purchase one of these caps from an auction site
I have been lucky to have seen [ 1 ] original Officers Summer issue white cap and it was not constucted like this,If my memory is correct it had the Black RZM label in the centre,White silk lining with the body of a very fine felt or beever like material with a leather visor.It was in an ensemble attributed to a Sturmbannfuher with the leaders White summer jacket. Its been photographed in a book that I once had and I saw this at Stuart Wilsons place just before it was shipped to the USA years ago now. AS A NOTE OF IMPORTANCE THE HAT HAD ALMOST TURNED TO A YELLOWY CREAM COLOUR DUE TO ITS AGE !!!!.I think the same collector also bought an SS-Birthday Honor Degan belonging to Klaggs??
Iv attached a few images of an original for any collector that hasnt seen one before,,,,

Closer image,,,,,,,,,,

quote:

who on earth would be tempted to purchase one of these caps from an auction site

don't means nothing. 2 years ago I got an original A-SS officer's cap from ebay.de at 1/10 of the usual price (cap already posted and discussed positively here)

was there also an RZM tag in the cap you found on Ebay?

Was it the ASS Enlisted mans upgrade cap you got from eBay.de? Iv tried to repost your images but they are too big from the site for some unknown reason

no, I mean this one. (no RZM tag inside because an early one)

not to make anything bad but somehow this hat is not 100% kosher to me. The complete shape is for my view not so very early, and then you have also the chance for an early RZM label. The inside look very familiar with the later around 38 RZM style EM caps. As I said maybe I am wrong but this are my 5 cents to it.

what do you mean robert? that the cape is not original because it hasn't any RZM tag?
I referred to it as "early" due to the '29 insignias, materials and teller-like form.
here is the inside:

As you mentioned "no RZM tag inside because an early one" is not right on this example as the complete construction style is not an early one. You find even these very early shaped Officer caps with leather visor and vent holes with the early brown or white RZM tags. This style you have is absolutely in the 37 or 38 style for my view. I bet the insignias are not original to this cap and the cap might be ones of the better faked ones I saw last year out from an European source. An Officer black cap has anyhow a different inside style then the one I see here. So maybe it is an upgrated cap or possible a complete copy, hands on would tell me more right now. You would need tremendous luck to find an original black cap on Ebay, it is mostly impossible trust me.

yes, insignia have been added later to the cap (but choosen by the sign left by precedent insignia...holes and shades clearly showed a '29 party eagle and a old school preussen skull.
it's funny, but this cap has been posted in various forums (on this too...) and every time it has been stated as original one.
in fact there is nothing wrog or strange with this cap...and I say again that this form is not a 37/38 style...it's more teller. On "headgear of hitler's germany vol.4 you can see a picture of an officer with old insignias and a cap form just like mine...sorry, I haven't the book here to add a pic).
regards, fabio

I'm also not crazy about the shape of this black cap. Where is the thread that discusses it?

I would expect a white or black inliner in this cap.

I don't remember where it was discussed...
anyway I really don't see nothing wrong with this cap.
here are some mor epics form my pc archive:
this is a side view, as you can see, where there's a damage in the side of the visor, there's the same damage on twisted cord...this is not an update, there is no signs on the velvet band and the silver cord belongs to the cap.

detail:

"crazed" fibr visor

piping:

inside the cap and under teh sweat band.

I really don't find nothing wrong on it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rev.stone:
I really don't find nothing wrong on it.[/QUOTE

IF YOU ARE HAPPY WITH THE CAP, THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS, HOWEVER, I CONCUR WITH MY ESTEEMED COLLEAGUE ROBERT HASSLER THAT THIS IS NOT A CAP I WOULD HAVE IN MY COLLECTION. EXPANDING ON HIS COMMENTS, HOW COULD THE CAP HAVE EARLIER INSIGNIA WHEN IT PRESENTLY IS FITTED WITH THE FIRST PATTERN NATIONAL EMBLEM AND TOTENKOPF? THE LINING MATERIAL IS NOT THE QUALITY TO BE FOUND IN AN OFFICER SCHIRMUTZE. THE SHAPE IS DEFINITLEY INCORRECT FOR A VERY EARLY PIECE. THE VISOR MATERIAL AND FINISH IS NOT WHAT ONE SHOULD FIND ON A PERIOD HAT. THE PIPING STANDS OUT TOO MUCH FOR THAT INSTALLED BY A MASTER HATMAKER. FINALLY, THE SHAPE INDICATES THAT, IF REAL, THE VISOR AND CAP SHOULD HAVE RZM MARKINGS. THERE ARE FEW BARGAINS IN THIS HOBBY. IF YOU PURCHASED THIS FOR A BARGAIN PRICE, THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.
REGARDS,
BOB]

well, everyone has it's right opinion, and I respect it 200%, but I don't agree with you. insignas ha been added but are pertinent with a 34/36 issue cap. linings like this I already seen on books. the shape has nothing wrong with a 34/36 period. the piping is PERFECTLY installed, (check front and side pictures)...it doesn't stands out too much for sure.
I think you use strict parameters good to RZM production but not fitted for a transitional periodo such as 34/36 productions. (full of strange and weird hand made items).
and finally, the fact that I've got it with a cheap ammount from a private doesn't mean nothing related to it's originality...is not only the source which gave originality.
the last owner don't knew either which kind of cap was this...
anyway,
the guy below have a cap very close to mine in shape and insignia (you can see more pics of this SS mann on "headgear of hitler's germany vol.4" and, I think, on the angolia insigna book...I haven't the book here with me).
fabio

I would have liked to have seen the bright orange sponge padding that is usually behind the sweatband at the forehead. Is the wool correct for an early cap? My enlisted circa 1934 cap has fine wool, like on collar tabs. Not the ribbed wool like this cap. (Unless this is for officers). Also doesn't look like officer's lining. Most original caps spent time sitting on a shelf either part or most of their life. I like to see a cap where the bottom edge of the cap, when viewed from the side, forms a "v" shape from sitting for years. Of course, if it was laying sideways in a foot locker for 60+ years, it would be different. This doesn't necessarily prove anything, it's just something I LIKE to see. Example shown here: