UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum SA unform help wanted.

Hi there SA collectors.
Is there anyone out there that can help me with information on the SA uniform shown on the picture?
I had that uniform for about a year now but don’t know much about it, the only information I have on it that’s is a 1940-45 model with double shoulder straps and it´s from Brigade 57 Niedersachsen but there the info on it is out.
On the only pictures that I had found on a similar uniform is a SA-Whermannschaften uniform from the book SA 1921-45 Hitler´s storm troopers but is this one a Wehrmannschaft uniform?
Besides the helmet and the DRL badge that I know aren’t correct is the other equipment right for this one?
How should it be to look like to be a period example, headgear, awards end equipment?
I think the pieces are orginal ones beside the helmet that I know are an orginal M35 helmet that has later been used by the Danish after the war so the paint and liner isn’t German ww2.
Any information about it is estimated to me then I´m don’t find any more info about it.
And is there any book that’s useful in learning about SA uniforms?
I only own the book that already has been mention but if I remember right there is a book that is mention as the SA bible, think it`s named The uniforms of the NSDAP?
My uniform shows minor wearing and has some markings and labels on it that can be shown if there is any interest.
Excuse my English it´s not the best but I hoop that you understand what I mean.
Regards Haij

Hi,
It's indeed a SA-Wehrmann tunic, but the mod. for EM/NCO, the officer one is a little bit different.
Here with a pic of the regular headwear wich goes with the tunic, the so called "SA-Wehrmann Mütze".
You could also use a SA-Wehmann M43, it's easier to find.
But the uniform could be worn in this configuration, "Volkssturm", war end fighter...

different "SA-Wehrmann" headgear.

specific EM/NCO trousers

RZM tag.

Hi!

Thanks for the info, then I was right thinking it was a SA-Whermannschaften uniform.

The RZM tab you are showing is that in the pants?
My one has RZM tags but no one is looking like this one, is that a good or bad sign?

I take some pictures on the tags in my one so you can se, starting to get some doubts if my really is a genuine piece.

/Haij

HELLO HAIJ-
I CONCUR WITH PASCAL THAT THE TUNIC IS A WEHRMANNSCHAFT TUNIC FOR OTHER RANKS. THE OFFICER CUT IS INDEED DIFFERENT. A NUMBER OF UNISSUED TUNICS WERE LOCATED IN STORAGE IN WHAT HAD BEEN A PART OF EAST GERMANY. THE WEAR OF THE OFFICER INSIGNIA ON A OTHER RANKS TUNIC POSSIBLY COULD INDICATE THIS IS ONE OF THE UNISSUED TUNICS WITH INSIGNIA ADDED LATER. FOR AN EXAMPLE OF THE OFFICER UNIFORM, SEE THIS ARTICLE: http://worldwarmilitaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1176

BOB

Haij, perhaps you could show some pics of the RZM tags to determine the 'official' usage of the britches, most likely to be an earlier SA or NSDAP item.

As your tunic was used later in the wartime period, it was worn with long pants and gaitored low ankle boots.

quote:

Originally posted by Haij:
Hi!

Thanks for the info, then I was right thinking it was a SA-Whermannschaften uniform.

The RZM tab you are showing is that in the pants?
My one has RZM tags but no one is looking like this one, is that a good or bad sign?

I take some pictures on the tags in my one so you can se, starting to get some doubts if my really is a genuine piece.

/Haij

Yes it's the tag in the pants.
Here with the tag in my tunic, but's an early one, would say 1939. The later tunic mod. are wearing a tag with "SA-WEHRMANN ROCK", same colors and design than the tag in the trousers.
(have to make a pic).

Hi!

Here come some pictures on the tags and markings I have found on the different pieces.
The pictures are not to sharp but I hope they will do, if you need better ones I see what I can do.

Nothing shine under black light if that’s still is a useful method.

The tag Pascal is showing on his last picture is that type of tags I have in mine, does that men that it´s an early example?

/Haij

Jacket

Pants

Sholder boards and armband

Hand sewn collar patch

And the right one

No problem IMO is all original (but not sure for the collar tabs...don't like them, white edging seems a little to too thick for a mod. 39/45), the "Stiefelhose" (breeches) seems to have continued their life after the war at a "Costum verleih" Costume of hiring (don't know if it's the right word), nice "SA-Halsbinde"

Here with a later mod. SA-Wehrmann tunic, darker SA- Mantel Tuch.

and... the RZM tag.

I believe the shoulderboards should be standard Wehrmannschaften shoulderboards with piping to designate future military service. Any pips or litzen would be on the shoulderboards. In the case of a Sturmfuhrer, the boards would be plain (No pips). If the purpose was to convert the tunic into an SA tunic, with the shoulderboards shown, the collar tabs should have silver piping, not white enlisted piping.

Hi!

Thanks for the info and pictures.
The possibility that the collar patches is sewn to the jacket some time after the war is not impossible, Pascal are you sure that the angle of the picture isn’t fooling the eye? The Pictures nor the camera I using is not very good.
If there is to be any piping on the shoulder boards I don´t know, the only picture I seen of a jacket of this type before is a drawn picture in the book The SA 1921-45 Hitler’s......
I don’t know if those drawn pictures are any good as some kind of reference material, but that jacket has yellow piping on the collar patches and no piping on the shoulder boards.
Only the "blue gray" fabric (what I can see) like the one I have on my one.
If the shoulder boards is no good perhaps the whole jacket is a fake as they must been sewn on it when the jacket was manufactured.

About the pants, if I get it right they are originals with stamps from a "costume rental store" and not the manufacture stamps that I believed it was.

If there´s needed better quality pictures to look at if there is any questions marks I can get some and send them by E-mail.

/Haij

And the last blury picture

THE BASIC UNIFORM AND SHOULDER STRAPS ARE PERIOD ORIGINALS. THE COLLAR TABS APPEAR TO BE OF MORE RECENT MANUFACTURE AS THE PIPING DOES NOT MATCH PERIOD ORIGINAL EXAMPLES FOR OTHER RANKS TABS AND AS PREVIOUSLY STATED, AN OFFICER TAB SHOULD HAVE SILVER PIPING. THIS IS AN OTHER RANKS TUNIC UPGRADED WITH OFFICER INSIGNIA TO RAISE THE VALUE. SORRY.

I'm sorry Bob, but I must disagree. Even the SA Generals had artificial silk as piping arround their tabs in the middle of the war. I would buy this uniform in a heartbeat. The tunic that Pascal showed is probably from a later period, as the color of the Wehrmannschaften changed from olive to dark olive in December '42.

The Br.57(Göttingen) must be dated between '41 and December '42.

Best,
Laurens

quote:

Originally posted by Straßburger:
No problem IMO is all original (but not sure for the collar tabs...don't like them, white edging seems a little too thick for a mod. 39/45), the "Stiefelhose" (breeches) seems to have continued their life after the war at a "Costum verleih" Costume of hiring (don't know if it's the right word), nice "SA-Halsbinde"

As said above...
The only thing I don't like is the collar tabs edging, seems not period, to thick and not the right material.
Agree with Bob on this point, IMO it's restored too, but also agre with Laurens about the using of white or yellow EM/NCO piping for the so called "subaltern" officer.

BUT, in the case of using cello piping for the collar tabs, think it had to be cello TORSADE (see pic below, torsade on this SA group "Mittelrhein" kepi crown)that's regulation.

But we all know it here, regulation it's not reality...

pic of a the right collar piping (size, material) ...

And here-with what could be a ref book...

CONCURING WITH PASCAL'S STATEMENT, IT SEEMS THAT NON REGULATION VARIATIONS CAN BE FOUND IN SA UNIFORMS MORE THAN ALL OTHER ORGANZIATIONS COMBINED IN THE 3RD REICH. I STILL DON'T LIKE THE COLLAR TABS. PHOTOS CAN NOT ALWAYS DEPICT WHAT AN ITEM IS IN REALITY. POSSIBLY IN HAND, MY OPINION WOULD CHANGE.

I like to add that in my opinion the white piping on the Br.57 tunic is very much the same as the yellow cornflower blue tab.
Besides does it have the same structure

I wish the tunic can speak and proove me right

For now agree to disagree and have a Happy 2009!

Best,
Laurens

quote:

Originally posted by laurens:
I like to add that in my opinion the white piping on the Br.57 tunic is very much the same as the yellow cornflower blue tab.
Besides does it have the same structure

I wish the tunic can speak and proove me right

For now agree to disagree and have a Happy 2009!

Best,
Laurens

Thank you Laurens and Happy new year !

The piping on the collar tabs seems to be a tricky question, I´m usually collect awards so I don´t have any knowledge about uniforms.

One thing I wondering about the collar tabs is if the piping and collar tab was sewn on separately?

The collar tab is stuck on the tunic very well but I can move the piping a little bit and it looks like the stitches that can be seen under the collar goes thru both the piping, patch and collar but is not the ones that is holding the patch on place?.

The piping structure on the yellow and blue collar patch Pascal is showing seems to be quite the same on the Br 57 patch but almost looks like those has been flatted by time (maybe better pictures had been good), the material on the yellow piping seems more "plastic" on the picture then the one I have.

I manage to find some lose threads of the piping that was stuck under the patch to try a burn test.
The result was that the threads ended up in soot like "orginal" should do and not melted to small dots like newer fake material does.

Don’t know if this burning test does any proof that the piping is orginal to the tunic besides that I get the result for orginal material.

/Haij

quote:

Originally posted by Haij:
the material on the yellow piping seems more "plastic" on the picture then the one I have.
/Haij

Hi Haij,

First of all you could use the black light test, you're lucky enough the "Br57" and the piping are white, it's easy to compare with an actual white fabric.
Of course it's not a proof but gives you a good or bad feeling anyway, personnaly I hate when it glows...

The period piping are made in cotton/artificial silk what's slightly shining, and that's what I don't like on this one. That gives the impression that a white shoe lace was used to make the piping.

Like the "black light test" is the "burn test" not really a proof too, but that tells you only, they used cotton thread to do the work.

BUT, if on the uniform, it's only the collar tabs which could be doubtful...it's not really serious, all depends on the paid price.
A SA collar tabs set is not very expensive, so you could easely replace the set.

But as said, only my opinion.

front

The piping on the tabs in question look much thicker than the (enlisted rank)yellow piping on the cornflower blue tab. Also, it should be silver or whitish twist cord like the piping on the kepi top shown, or like the shoulder boards on the tunic.

Hi!

I think I maybe already written about the black light test, I have going thru the whole jacket and pants with black light and nothing shines.

Well fore sure the piping on my one is not slightly shiny, I rather looks a little bit matt or just white like the "Br57".

That I wrote about the stitches on the collar and the piping was not correct.
After looking on it again and again I saw that the stitches that can be seen under the collar is the one holding the patch and is not going thru the piping that I earlier thought.

The stitches that hold the piping seems to lost their strength or are just untight from the beginning and that´s maybe one reason why the piping appears "thick" on the pictures.

The shape on the piping is rectangular and has bend away from the patch (due the loose stitches?) on several places and looks thick on the pictures, it´s almost impossible to get a good photo that’s show that but I think the orginal shape on the whole piping once was like it´s still in the corners.
Exept in the place it´s "sewn together", there it´s probably always looking like it doing now.

The measurement of the patch is 52mm high and 38mm wide and the piping is 4mm high and 2,5mm thick and as already written besides the yellow color the piping seems identical to the 6/177 patch.

I don´t think this will change your opinions about it, only try to give you the info I can offer then I cant get some good photos of it.
Perhaps this needs to be seen with the eye and not pictures.

/Haij

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