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#66527 07/30/2007 11:21 PM
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Hi all,

This is my ground Rohm Boker. I have had this dagger for a few years but never posted any pics before now. Recently there was a post by a GD member (SSresearcher) Ross Kellbaugh saying he had identified the names belonging to some SS numbers that were not on the officer list, one of which was the number on my Boker. So after some communication with him I agreed to purchase a research package from him identifying the previous owner of my dagger. He identified him as Hans Kopp, SS Scharfuehrer, ,Sturm 5 / Sturmbann II / 83 SS standarte. What I didn't mention is that the dagger is stamped with not only his SS number but also with his name Kopp. Like Ross said to me, it was a real blind test. The advanced research package I purchased contained his Race and Settlement file which contained three pictures of him and many, many documents. Two of the pictures were of him in civilian close and one of him in his SS uniform. I will post some of the documents here and some in the Document forum. I do not speak or read German so I would like some help translating and understanding them. I would urge anyone with an unidentified SS number to contact Ross Kellbaugh (SS researcher) and see if he can put a name with your number. It doesn't cost anything to inquire about a number and see if it is in his data base. I am very happy with the package I received. OK, now about the dagger. It is a named, numbered ground Rohm M33 Boker SS. It is not mint but is not a beater either.

obverse.jpg (91.31 KB, 456 downloads)
#66528 07/30/2007 11:24 PM
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obverse 2

obverse2.jpg (77.61 KB, 448 downloads)
#66529 07/30/2007 11:27 PM
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reverse

reverse.jpg (76.07 KB, 437 downloads)
#66530 07/30/2007 11:32 PM
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name and number

name_and_number.jpg (96.17 KB, 432 downloads)
#66531 07/30/2007 11:35 PM
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grip

grip.jpg (84.44 KB, 432 downloads)
#66532 07/30/2007 11:39 PM
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motto

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#66533 07/30/2007 11:41 PM
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That's fantastic! Great looking dagger but then to add all of that information to it that you couldn't do before... well... what more could you ask for... Cool

I guess this dagger's not going anywhere in a hurry then... Big Grin

Nice one!

#66534 07/30/2007 11:54 PM
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SS

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#66535 07/30/2007 11:58 PM
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in uniform

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#66536 07/31/2007 12:04 AM
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out of uniform

Dagger_and_Hans_civilian_pic.jpg (88.67 KB, 416 downloads)
#66537 07/31/2007 12:22 AM
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Thanks spd. No it's not going anywhere soon. It's like getting a "new" dagger, maybe better!

#66538 07/31/2007 12:33 AM
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a few things from his file

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#66539 07/31/2007 12:37 AM
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2

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#66540 07/31/2007 12:40 AM
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3

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#66541 07/31/2007 12:56 AM
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I will post more later. Any help explaining the documents would be appreciated. Thanks for letting me share this.

#66542 07/31/2007 02:11 AM
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Congratulations Nietzsche, what a fantastic piece to own. The dagger's a Boker, in great shape, with the original owners name & number stamped on it....and you have information on him to boot. Doesn't get much better than that my friend. Smile

Thanks for sharing the pics & info. I'm going to keep Ross Kellbaughs name on hand for sure. Sooner or later I'm going to own a numbered SS dagger. Cool

John

#66543 07/31/2007 02:30 AM
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Very nice piece, congrats.
Eek
Well done to Ross for compiling the research for you.

There's a thread or two already on here with some other SS numbered daggers with research to have a look at.

#66544 07/31/2007 03:06 AM
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Great piece with pedigree

#66545 07/31/2007 03:17 AM
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Excellent Nietzsche, a documented dagger just wreaks history! ~ Ian


GDC Gold Badge #0204

"Even if such objects cannot change the soul of man, at least they give him an identity." - Heinrich Himmler
#66546 07/31/2007 06:21 AM
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Fantastic,a great dagger completed by a file on the owner,a keeper for sure.This Forum can enhance a collection, by its members offering to assist others.Well done and thanks for posting it,I wish I had a numbered dagger to research!!
Ivan.

#66547 07/31/2007 05:08 PM
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We all love the dagger. But 99% of the time it's
"Here's the Dagger". Who was the original owner in most cases will never be known. But it this case you can say " Here's the Man and his Dagger". It's a world of difference. Congrats! Smile
-wagner-

#66548 07/31/2007 09:40 PM
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Congratulations on your Double good fortune: 1st a Boker, and 2nd, a numbered / named identifiable Dagger!! What great news that SS Researcher has 'dug in' and has found additional SS ID Numbers - & continues to find even more. Enjoy your treasure as you continue to learn about the owner via German translation of your documents. Best, Dave ... dblmed


[Always looking for TeNoSchumaTechnische Noodhulp Items...]
#66549 07/31/2007 09:59 PM
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All I can say is WOW! A Boker's fit and finish is always there no matter it's condition and yours looks really good but to have it named and a file on the guy is a dream. Congrats!

#66550 08/01/2007 01:25 AM
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Hi Gents:
It is a real treat for me to finally see the dagger itself after uncovering its owner. I was wondering if it would be an honor dagger, and it is very interesting that it is. Below is one of Kopp's service file cards. Several versions were in his Race & Settlement file. This is sometimes the case with a NCO or enlisted man since this file was used as a catch-all when documents were sorted after the war.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ss-numbers.com


"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
#66551 08/01/2007 01:30 AM
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Kopp Service File Card

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"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
#66552 08/01/2007 01:32 AM
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Thank you everyone, glad you guys like it! I am very happy with most of my purchases but this one even more so. It makes me wish I had not passed up some of those numbered daggers that
were not "good enough" because of condition.

#66553 08/01/2007 01:38 AM
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What's real interesting is that it notes that Kopp received his honor dagger. And there it is above folks. Congrats Nietzsche and thanks for your support.

Ross Kelbaugh

ww.ss-numbers.com

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"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
#66554 08/01/2007 02:14 AM
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Ross,
Good work!
You are a friend I have not met.
Can you explain what these documents are?
Some I understand but some are confusing.
I am sure the members would find it very interesting.
Feel free to post any of Kopp's file you sent me.

#66555 08/02/2007 03:46 PM
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Hi Gents:

Let me give a little background as to how I got into this serial number research first because I know that I have come out of nowhere into this collecting community. I have always been interested in researching the people connected to the objects that enhances their desirability for collecting. Information is power and an edge to compete with the deep pockets that attracted to hot collecting fields. And I find the collection of information satisfying when I am not buying stuff. I had been working a while ago at the National Archives in Washington, DC, on a project collecting information on Civil War era photographers and serial numbers on Civil War guns. The gun research can sometimes match a weapon to the Union soldier to whom it was issued and all kinds of interesting things can then emerge. When the Archives II opened in College Park, the Internal Revenue Assessment lists that I had used for Civil War photographer research had been moved to the microfilm reading room there. One day on a break (I was a history teacher with summers unemployed), I happened to wonder over to the opposite side of the room where the TR records were kept and spotted the SS files in which I found serial numbers of NCO's and enlisted men. I had read that the conventional wisdom was that these didn't exist. I saw a numbered but unidentified SS dagger on Tom Wittman's website for sale that had the initials "HB" engraved on it. Well, I thought I would just go through the "B" enlisted files and find the guy, buy the dagger and live happily ever after with my discovery. Well, it didn't happen as the research was slow and daunting and someone else bought the dagger. Returning to this project after serving as guest curator for a museum exhibit on Civil War photographs last year, I came across unit files with lists of SS men and their serial numbers- many of whom were NCO's and enlisted men. Eureka! Since then I have been diligently combing the SS records looking for numbers not in the Dienstalterslists and have uncovered more than 50,000 at this point. Putting the name with number is the "Rosetta stone" for unlocking the story behind the object as seen here with Hans Kopp.

Once I match the name to the serial number, you hope to find a Race and Settlement file for him. The SS officer files are massive and were kept by the office of the SS Personalhauptamt. These are the major source for info about them and are available on microfilm at the National Archives. The SS Hauptamt kept the records for NCO's and enlisted men. The enlisted men files copied on microfilm mostly include men who joined the Waffen SS later during the war. The rest were evidently destroyed at the end the war (or the Russians have them). When I get a match for a name and number, you hope that there is a Race and Settlement file as there was for Kopp. These records were maintained by the SS Rasse-und Siedlungshauptampt or RuSHA office. Any SS man had to get a permit to marry which certified the purity of his bloodline and that of his spouse. Among the forms that had to be filed were the SS mans autobiography, a family tree for each person dating back to at least 1800, and three photographs (bust, profile, full length). Each SS man had a personnel card that was maintained in triplicate for his sturm, standarte, and SS Hauptamt files. Several of Kopps personnel filecards happened to end up in ended up in his RuSHA file. Attached is one of his cards that I have done some interpretation of which was easier to read since it was typed. My expertise is in finding the records and not translating them. I use a German-English dictionary and recommend Babel Fish translation:
http://world.altavista.com/

For reading German Gothic, I find this site helpful:

http://shoebox.heindorffhus.dk/frame-Gothic.htm

These offer some interesting information about this man. I am speculating that the oath taken on 2.8.1934 might have been the one pledging loyalty to Hitler though I know this was usually taken on 9 November. Any help here would be appreciated. If anyone is interested, I will post some more analysis of the Kopp file and the SS research process a little later. I dont want to be preaching to the choir and I know many of you know far more about these artifacts than me.

Regards,

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ss-numbers.com

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"Making History Personal"- Research for Collectors by a Collector.
#66556 08/02/2007 04:24 PM
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It is indeed a great asset to our Hobby. I for one want to Congratulate you Ross on having added a significant impact in the field of SS enlisted and NCO research. I would like to nominate Ross for the appropriate award here on GDC. Can I get a 2nd?

-wagner-

#66557 08/02/2007 05:55 PM
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I will 2ND that!

#66558 08/02/2007 06:47 PM
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Seconded! Or, Thirded! And I'll look at my SS daggers and get some numbers together!

Nietzsche, I love that stamping. I really like school marked NPEA crossguards, so the stamping on your SS crossguard really gets my collector blood boiling, as it is classic.


John


John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
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#66559 08/02/2007 07:25 PM
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I would like to once again thank everyone for their comments. This dagger will remain in my collection for a long time.

#66560 08/07/2007 06:43 PM
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To satisfy my curiosity I would like to know what your opinions are on the value of this dagger.

Thanks, Jim


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