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#61926 07/31/2007 01:04 PM
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Ruski- I am sorry to say that this conversation is going on at a very inconvenient time because I am moving in a few weeks. I have already packed up my collection to make sure that everything is safe. If that were not the case I would have already posted close-up pics for this thread by now. Until I get settled in in my new location I will just have to describe it to you.
The etch on the Puma is similar to the other DJ knives in the design of the etch (IE Eagle on top, then "Reichsparteitag Nurnberg 1935" amd the Nurnberg crest below". However the Puma each is about 20% larger in all dimentions than the standard DJ etch. The Eagle is most obviously different as it has more feathers and details than the smaller DJ etch. As I said before the Puma is also etched more deeply than the others.
So yes, it is a very similar etch overall, however once you look closely it is truly unique and differs from the DJ version in every way.
Hope that helps,
Johnny


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#61927 07/31/2007 05:00 PM
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I might be able to help a little here until Johnny V. has time to take some more pictures. Here are the two knives shown closer in a side by side from one of his images. I think that it shows some of what he is making reference to.

Also in looking at it in a direct side by side image my sense of it is that the pommel on the the Puma might be a higher grade alloy. Possibly from Durener Metallwerke which made period aircraft grade materials. Not so for the “DJ” version of the knife in any of its many assorted incarnations. I also am probably going to revamp my “theory” some, but don’t know at the moment just what shape it will take. Although I think it’s fair to say that I think I’m seeing a lot more in the way of postwar activity. FP

Puma-DJ-combo.jpg (29.56 KB, 504 downloads)
#61928 07/31/2007 06:01 PM
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Thanks F.P. You did a great job of lineing those up to scale. From the pics that I provided this shows what I am talking about.
If I can find the box with the Nurnberg daggers in it I will try to get some closer pics up soon. Too bad the old thread about these knives is not still on GDC because I had already submitted close-ups of each blade type with discriptice comparison... it is like dejavoo (sp?)
Big Grin


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#61929 08/01/2007 05:07 AM
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Many thanks to Johnny and Fred for the additional info and comparison pics.

Good luck with the move Johnny! Look forward to seeing your pics when you're settled again.

Regards

Russell

#61930 08/03/2007 03:22 AM
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OK, I did some un-packing/re-packing to get these pics.
I hope they help. I would like to mention that the first two pictures (of each set) are of the same "scale" and were taken from the same distance from the blade. Thus the first two, and the last two pics, show the difference between the "standard" Nurnberg DJ type as compared to the rarer Puma type...
Let me know if you have questions... but it may be some tme before I con post more pics.
I hope this helps!
First the DJ!
Johnny

DSCN2804.jpg (45.74 KB, 459 downloads)

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#61931 08/03/2007 03:23 AM
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Puma SAME scale!

DSCN2805.jpg (46.89 KB, 458 downloads)

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#61932 08/03/2007 03:27 AM
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PLEASE notice that the DJ eagle is MUCH simpler than the eagle on the Puma version....

DSCN2806.jpg (50.38 KB, 454 downloads)

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#61933 08/03/2007 03:28 AM
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And the Puma Eagle:!!!! (from the SAME DISTANCE)

DSCN2807.jpg (41.39 KB, 451 downloads)

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#61934 08/03/2007 03:35 AM
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PLEASE notice the deamatically better detail in the Puma Eagles chest feathers and head deatil as well as the detail of the leaves around the swaz. itself.
To be honest, I can understand the doubt that exists within the community about the DJ pieces. (The quality has been... "lacking")
However after having owned and held a the Puma version in my hands, I can see the quality, detail, and workmanship which ecemplifies this period of German craftsmen.
I (personally) have No doubts about the Puma pieces, and thus the DJ pieces as well.
If there is anything more thay I can provide with my 2 examples please let me know.
All the best, and good hunting,
Johnny


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#61935 08/04/2007 01:38 AM
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Johnny, thanks for going to the trouble of un-packing to find these and taking some great photos! The pics clearly show how different these two pieces are. The Puma certainly looks to be a very high quality piece with a beautiful deep, sharp, and highly detailed etch - thankyou for showing it!

In terms of the quality, the 'DJ type' can't be compared to the Puma, and I don't think the lesser quality alone would necessarily mean that the 'DJ type' version was not a period piece. A scenario - if the ‘DJ’ pieces are more prevalent than the Puma types, which they seem to be, perhaps this could be because their overall total production cost may have been a lot less than the Puma. As they were essentially souvenirs, perhaps a lower quality item at a lesser cost would be sufficient to sell at the Party Day, and therefore also allow a little more margin for the Party with each piece sold.

On the other hand, if the ‘DJ type’ did not appear until the 80’s sometime, this would have to put a question mark over why the ‘DJ type’ did not appear until 45+ years after the event, and most likely the first question asked is - could this type be postwar? If so, then my opening post in this thread, of trying to explain the existence of the so-called ‘DJ/BDM’ knife as leftover un-etched Rally knives cannot be right – and that’s okay! Judging by the number of views this topic has received, it would appear that there is a great deal of interest in these knives and I look forward to seeing and reading more about them!

Regards

Russell

#61936 08/04/2007 02:16 PM
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Russell and Johnny V. First, I’d like to thank Johnny for going to the extra effort to pull out and photograph the two knives. It’s very refreshing to work with guys who aren't afraid to take a good look at what they have trying to sort out the good from the bad. If I was a judge and there was a “poster child” award for trade quality mid 1930’s Solingen blades. I would have to give it to the Puma. What is basically a hunting/souvenir knife - it shows what level of workmanship that the German blade industry was capable of creating in that era.

Unfortunately this weekend I’ve got some work and other things to do. And to some extent I’m also tied up in discussions with a couple of (very likely) parts pieces and a rework elsewhere. So I’m probably going to have to hold off for a couple of days before I have a chance to really look at the images. Best Regards, FP

#61937 05/01/2008 01:35 AM
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This is a superb thread. I really enjoyed the read. Very interesting and educational.
With my post bumping it up, i hope other people can read it as it is certanlty worth it.

#61938 05/01/2008 04:10 AM
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A while back, I remember a long dissertation by Bill Shea about the DJ knives and how, if my memory serves me well, he actually talked to someone high up in the BDM, the girl version of DJ, and that the DJ knife is actually a BDM knife.

This could explain why so few of them were used or abused. Pardon my sexism, but boys do like to play with knives, while girls don't.

It sounded like a good story at the time and DJs (or BDMs or whatever) of both styles, with and without insignia on scabbard, as well as the Nurnberg and the Olympic knives all seem to be accepted by many of the 'names' in the business.

I have seen these, all of these, for sale at various times at all of the major and many of the minor dealers.

At the MAX two years ago, I almost purchased a Nurnberg Voos knife, but I found conflicting stories and body language from the guys whose opinions I asked and I also found the knife way too flimsy to be comfortable. I have the two versions of the DJ, and they are both more solid, like real knives.

John


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
#61939 12/13/2009 04:57 PM
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Bringing this back to top with my DJ/BDM. It is the same size as the small knives posted here but the blade is shaped like the normal full-sized HJ knife. Comments please.

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Reverse
#61940 12/13/2009 04:59 PM
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Obverse

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Obverse
#61941 12/13/2009 04:59 PM
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Grip

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Grip
#61942 12/13/2009 05:00 PM
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Mark

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Mark
#61943 12/13/2009 07:43 PM
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I'd like to see the grip rivets of both sides in sharp detail.

#61944 12/13/2009 08:19 PM
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The rivets appear to be aluminum, they don't attract a magnet.

MVC-026S.JPG (36.83 KB, 355 downloads)
Rivet 1
#61945 12/13/2009 08:19 PM
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Rivet 2

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Rivet 2
#61946 12/13/2009 08:23 PM
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Rear rivet 1

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RR1
#61947 12/13/2009 08:24 PM
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RR2

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RR2
#61948 12/13/2009 08:25 PM
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Height of rivets

MVC-030S.JPG (36.15 KB, 534 downloads)
HR
#61949 12/13/2009 08:38 PM
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Comparison with full-size HJ in the center.

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Comp
#61950 12/13/2009 08:48 PM
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The HJ emblem appears to be full-size and it moves a little in the grip. The knife at the top in the picture above is very similar to the bottom one except that the emblem is horrible. The hilt on the top one is also cruder in its finishing. The blades are very similar (and quite thick). I got the 2 smaller knives from separate deals at different times.

#61951 12/13/2009 09:39 PM
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The smaller type also exists with the motto and the grip emblem and possibly a maker too but--I never look at these too close-- Cool-I think you know why.


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Bringing this back up again

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I posted this on the misc forum ,One of my Nuremberg Rally knives bag's is in bad shape. I am sending this bag to the University of Georgia for testing. Not a C 14 test but a test to show if the trees used for paper and the ink if made from plant material was living prior to nuclear weapons testing. If they were living during nuclear weapons test of the 40s and 50s it will show up. I have already tested all of my bags with UV light and they passed. Paper manufacturers started adding brighteners to paper in the late 40s and onward. These brighteners glow under UV light. None of my bags glowed. The lab states that the test will take about three weeks. I am sending the bag to them next week. If it passes I am sure some will state that they used old paper , bags and ink to make these at a later date. If the grip plates of the flat non rounded horn grips are real stag horn I want to have it tested also. If I can find a Nuremberg or Olympics knife with a broken grip plate I would like to purchase it for testing. I noticed a Rally Knife above with a round stag horn grip. I have never seen one of those before. I have only seen the ones with a flat type of grip. The bag being sent for testing is from one of the flat stag horn grip knives. I will keep this site updated. Regards , Rattler

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I've asked this before and never got an answer. Whatever happened to those HJ knives with blue diamonds that had the Olympic Rings? I haven't seen any in at least 15 years.

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Johnson and others sold all of them, and I assume they are now in deep closet collections.

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Reminiscent of the PW "Krupp" daggers (and it's been awhile since I've seen one) what my recollection of the blue diamond knives is that guys who specialized in HJ collectibles did NOT like them at all considering all of them to be fakes. And the surest way to not find any buyers is getting a bad reputation and keeping it alive by educating the new guys, so they stay hidden. (Or get converted back to a red diamond, new grips, whatever.) Best Regards, Fred

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Hello ,

I discover this old post and by the same time I note the apparition of such daggers to be sold elsewhere .

My opinion on that knives is dubitative : in spite of commercial arguments ( a lot of DJ daggers discovered in Eastern Germany after 1990 ) the blades are as new , I do not know some metal of 80 y.o with such a brightness even if they were kept in a protected area.

S+

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If all that is lacking to prove authenticity is photographs of such daggers in wear, that could be easily solved. Assuming the "Big Boys" are all conspiring to sell these variations for big buck over the last 30 years, why would they not invest a few hundred dollars to have period photographs "Enhanced". A little photoshopping would definitely boost sales.
I have to be honest, I never owned, sold or traded one of these daggers, so I have no vested interest.

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Originally Posted By: Notaguru
If all that is lacking to prove authenticity is photographs of such daggers in wear, that could be easily solved. Assuming the "Big Boys" are all conspiring to sell these variations for big buck over the last 30 years, why would they not invest a few hundred dollars to have period photographs "Enhanced". A little photoshopping would definitely boost sales.
I have to be honest, I never owned, sold or traded one of these daggers, so I have no vested interest.





Hey dont give them Big Boys or shady scammers any ideas as it just might come true one day !!!

Funny how we do not see any well worn or abused knifes in question here ? we see plenty of well worn & sharpened origional HJ knifes, i would not buy any of these knifes in question here without any period info/evidence to back them up especially these Nurnburg & Olympic knifes, the DJ or so called BDM knifes might be only a common utility knife sold to joe blogs, then post war humped up by adding a hj diamond, but i,m not sure if these small non paramilitary knifes were produced pre war or post war ?



Regards Mac 66

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Originally Posted By: Notaguru
If all that is lacking to prove authenticity is photographs of such daggers in wear, that could be easily solved. Assuming the "Big Boys" are all conspiring to sell these variations for big buck over the last 30 years, why would they not invest a few hundred dollars to have period photographs "Enhanced". A little photoshopping would definitely boost sales.
I have to be honest, I never owned, sold or traded one of these daggers, so I have no vested interest.

I know a graphic designer, who having seen some of his work, could digitally do the transformation very easily. But getting it put into a period publication is another matter, also not trusting loose photos which are well known to be faked for pay books, autographed, etc. etc. for the collector market. But if some of the "Big Boys" actually commissioned somebody do the work imagine this scenario: count #1) - Conspiracy, #2) Fraud, #3) Multiple counts of fraud, #4) at the Felony level, #5) at the Federal level (crossing state lines). So no, I think that's the real reason why we haven't seen any of these alleged "period in use pictures" that some claim exist. Because it's one thing to sell a fraud/fake and claim ignorance or "everybody is doing it" - but when you take it a step beyond that into committing criminal acts to further that fraud - that could conceivably get you some serious jail time. Best Regards, Fred

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I found a pic. What do you reckon guys?


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This is very interesting, Nork!

The picture shows a non standard HJ-knife -just look at that finger guard!- and it shows a HJ-diamond attached to the scabbard.

Can you tell us more about the picture? Is it from a book or a magazine? Is it a private period photo?

Thanks and best regards,

Herman


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Herman V. is the back of the photo marked in any way?


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A friend sent me this. Says he found it online recently. I'll try and find out where he got it from. Someone said apparently that the rune is weird or too bright? Well the man pictured is a high ranking DJ leader (Gebiet Jungvolk Fuhrer) and those sleeve runes were only in use for a short time. Nothing wrong that rune at all. The knife is definitely interesting though and it looks like it has the correct dimensions to be a DJ knife and with scabbard diamond! What I would say is that this photo is early, not late-war. Some sellers put these knives into mid-war or late-war so the photo turns that theory on its head I think.

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Hello, this is a truely interesting photograph. Imho it shows, that most fake developments have it´s origine in a period phenomenon.
Unfortunately the pic is blurry. Otherwise we could see what it is in the grip itself as there is(!) something between the two rivets I cannot spot exactly.
Thank you for showing this pic!
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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