UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Feldherrnhalle Dagger Frog

Here is a question that might stir debate:

Does anyone have photo proof that the SA Regiment Feldherrnhalle used special vertical hangers for their SA daggers ? Unit pictures ?

Dave

No opinions ?

I have seen several posts over the years showing bayonet-like (or frog-like) SA vertical hangers attributed to the SA Regiment Feldherrnhalle. All were different.

What are considered the real ones?

Dave

Dave, this is a very good question! I myself have never seen a FHH picture showing this type worn. This should be interesting. I have a post right now with a vertical hngr that I feel is NSKK and it's very simalar to the ones you mention and it's RZM marked like most we have seen, is there anything in an accutriments catalog the identifies these types of hangers?

Fritziii

Fritz,

I have never heard of anything in catalogs that identifies FHH enlisted hangers. It may be present, but I missed the reference to that particular one.

Anyone have examples to post ?

Dave

Dave,
I've one, but my pics aren't of the best quality!

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I HAVE A PHOTO ALBUM CIRCA 1936, THAT BELONGED TO A YOUNG MAN WHO WAS A MEMBER OF FELDHERRNHALLE. THERE ARE NUMEROUS PHOTOS OF THE FHH SQUADS ON REVIEW. IN ALL CASES, THE DAGGER IS SUSPENDED BY NORMAL MEANS.

Hi Jochen,
What maker mark on your dagger?

Maybe this is another Urban Legend. I remember seeing the frogs referred to as FHH in some reference books...wonder where they got the info?

I have one, and the crossguard has no gau mark at all. I think they are supposed to be marked with a W.
John

I think you are right there John.
Seiler.

EXCEPT FOR THE CADRE, MEN AND JUNIOR GRADE OFFICERS OF THE FELDHERRNHALLE WERE ANNUALY CHOSEN AS THE ELITE FROM THE VARIOUS SA GRUPPE.
I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN UNDER THE OPINION THAT THESE MEN BROUGHT THEIR DAGGERS WITH THEM FOR THEIR YEAR SERVICE. I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY PROOF THAT THE BAYONET STYLE FROG IS NOT JUST ANOTHER EARLY FORM OF VERTICAL HANGER. I HAVE SEEN THREE OF THESE OVER THE YEARS, INCLUDING ONE IN MY COLLECTION THAT WERE DIRECT VETERAN PURCHASES. IN EACH CASE, THE DAGGER IS MARKED WITH A STANDARD S A GRUPPE MARK ON THE CROSSGUARD, NOT A "W."

I have a W

Wow, now that is interesting Bitberg. I thought the W was the gau mark, not an extra added W mark. I think I have seen the gau mark as just a W. I have never seen an added W like that. It looks like a unique size font W, so if others have this on their daggers and it looks like the same stamp, that would be helpful to say it is the real deal, and not a fantasy added to the dagger by someone trying to creat a FHH dagger.

John

ALL S A GRUPPE AND OBERGRUPPE HEADQUARTERS HAD THEIR OWN STAFF GUARDS WHO WORE A CUFFTITLE "STABSWACHT." I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL OF THESE "W" MARKS ON CROSSGUARDS IN THE PAST AND HAVE ALWAYS CONSIDERED THEM TO INDICATE OWNERSHIP BY A MEMBER OF ONE OF THESE UNITS, NOT THE FELDHERRNHALLE.

Does anyone have pictures of ANY SA vertical hangers in wear?

We know they exist, although not in great numbers, so they were worn at some time or other. Perhaps by members of bands, or flag bearers, or others who could not use their left hand to dampen the movement.

Dave

I have seen that "W" mark a couple of times, both times off center as above.

Anyone have a shot of it centered like a Gau mark ?

Meanwhile, here is another "W" to discuss

Dave

Here's a J.A. Henckels with a W. Under a loop you can see the Gau mark Wf polished out and the W restamped.

..

Raymond,

That looks to me like a double strike which is not uncommon. The guy hit it the first time and didn't like the result, so he gave it another hit. You also see a fair amount of strikes where the stamp was not perpendicular to the crossguard and so one end or the other is hard to read.

Below is another interesting photo I downloaded a long time ago. Comments ?

Dave

I am starting to think that the FHH vertical did not exist as a single, identifiable frog. Maybe it did not exist at all as an FFH frog.

The first mention I can find is Angolia's dagger book of 1970. Page 39. There is a close up and an in-wear picture ... but they are not the same hanger.

The big "W" still defies a watertight explanation if it is seen on both SS and SA daggers ... ?

Thoughts or contradictions ?

Dave

Dave, do you have any other pictures of the SS with the W? Is there a group mark on the other side of the cross guard? The crossguards look buffed, the grip looks refinished, and the Runes button looks set too deep....in other words, maybe that particular example is questionable. Maybe it's just the poor picture quality. Plus, it would be nice if there was more than one SS marked example.

John

John,

It is an old image harvested from .. probably eBay. The faults you mention are real , but so is the "W". What to make of this, I don't know.

Dave

Ah, OK Dave. I agree, the W looks the same as the others, but it could be a parts dagger. I'd hate to shoot down the SA "STABSWACHT" theory with one questionable example looking like an SS dagger.

Any more examples from anyone?


Thanks, John

Dave, how might the RZM and proper L.... marking be explained which are only on these rare socalled FHH frogs (no other SA verticals)?
Regards,

I have seen several different vertical of the "frog" type with the RZM L2 markings. To me this means that these frogs were made after the RZM exerted control their over the accoutrement makers. Just like the SS, there were a couple of quick generations of innovative designs before you start seeing the marked leather. At least one was patented and made in both black and brown. See below

The extra "W" ? Other than a property mark, I cannot figure out a reason why an already issued dagger would have an extra mark added. Why would the staff guards - Stabswacht - which was probably a rotating duty position have their daggers stamped ? This is not an easy thing to do.

Dave

BTW, the ones above are marked D.R.G.M. and the probable reason they were patented is that they can be converted from a vertical hanger to one that lets the dagger hang at 45 degrees.

Dave

Would anyone with a dagger with the "W" stamped in the middle please post some good pictures.

I am wondering if they might be badly struck "Wf" marks and a good picture should tell.

Thanks
Dave

I talked with Tom Wittmann about "W" gau marks. He has seen some off-center "W" marks on SS daggers as in the picture shown above by myself and as on the SA dagger shown by Bitburg.

It would appear that those off-center "W" marks meant something, but probably not a Stabswacht solely for the SA. Anybody have other thoughts ?

Dave

Hi Dave,heres another SA dagger with a W gau mark,if you look carefully you can see a faint outline of an f.
It looks as if the same person stamped the Gau on Raymond's dagger as well,striking more on the left .
nats
http://www.stan-the-man.tk/

Thanks,

I am stating to think that this may be where the "W" gau mark story came from.

If anyone else has "Wf" photos handy, I would be interesting to see if more are struck at a slight angle.

Dave

Here I have seen such interesting photo: http://ak-group.ru/forum/showthread.php? t=402

I have been researching these as information turned up, and the only definitive information in print that I could find was in a mid 1930's SA Verordnungsblatt indicating that 'leather frogs for the daggers have been observed being worn, and they are forbidden to be used. All SA daggers will be worn on the standard hanger with the stabilizing strap'.
Most of the vertical SA hangers (not the bayonet looking frogs) seem to be early, and likely predate the edict from the OSAF.
Erich

Erich,

I think you are correct. The original thought on vertical frog-like hangers was published in 1970, but period pictures are as above - from the back and fairly early after the issue of the daggers.
Dave

Good thread! I have one of these so called frogs in my collection and is RZM L2 marked like the rest only mine is black, now if you look at the above pic there looks to be two colors of frogs, brown and black and the black frogs look to be carried by lower rank men since they are the ones carring the pack and the guys in the front with no packs look to be officers with brown frogs. Interesting, Dave do you want me to post a pic of my dagger with this frog?

Fritziii

Yes, please post.

I have a dagger with a frog like vertical that I need to post as well.

Dave

Here are pics of my SA frog hngr, the dagger is an Aesoloupe and is gau marked SW. The hanger itself is RZM marked klike you see the rest of them marked.

Fritziii

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