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#60199 03/10/2008 08:06 PM
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Hello colleagues,

I want to share with you pics published today on our MD forum... The guy who found it owns metal detector cca two monts! Unbelievable luck...
I do not want to question this ring with rarely seen date, looks good to me.. What do you think?

Jan

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second..

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Third...

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Last... nice ring, right?

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Hmmm dont like a writing of figures
9 and 11, and 38. All figures have diff. size, its strange. Confused

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I do like the skull but the Himmler signature looks "off". It's slightly angled downward, could it be the angle of the photograph?


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It cannot be beat having a camera ready to take a picture of the ring as it is removed from the ground for proof of origin.How could it not be genuine?


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Jan, I see what Evgeniy is refering to,,the 38 is bigger,,also the Himmler looks like its on a downward slant,,even though it looks like a small sized ring the engraving looks crowded.

*more photos are needed. The other runes, behind skull,more of the engraving..The ring could be fine and its just the photos playing tricks, casting doubts. IF it does turn out to be good its got to be a record for CZ with the most ground dug original examples!!

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Evgeniy and Gaspare: you are right with the numbers in date, I noticed it too... We will see if I can have next pics to see details.
Thanks anyway Smile
P.S. I think record for CZ with most dug rings is unquestionable ;-)

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call me a sceptic, but i dont like anything ive seen yet, bad ring, overly aged tabs. not for me, all bad.


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All this photos may be legend for trade Wink

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It is amazing not a ounce of tarnish on that silver ring I find that funny.

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I know you skeptic, and it is OK! I do not know the guy personally. Only have to mention my personall experience with silver - everytime depends on purity of silver and ground condition (acidity etc). You can find coins black like hell, or slean and brite like 3RM dated 1917 I found few weeks ago..
However here are some other (rather poor) pics of this ring...

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next..

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third..

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Fourth..

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Fifth..

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And the last... Thanks for watching.

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Well from the photo of the tabs and rank pips the ground has a lot of acid in it. The photo of the ring it is comming out of the ground seems to be staged. The photo you posted show the ring being taken from a hole in some lose soil around it. But notice :

1st the large rock to the right it has a bunch of dry soil on it as if it was dug up a few days before. It also has damp soil on it to which means it was placed back in the hole and sudden bought up with the ring amazing find!


2nd the large tree root seems to be bone dry, if it was in the hole as pictured there should be moist dirt and such on it.

3rd look at the hole the collar tabs are comming out, just a little green grass around the hole , fresh , newly growing grass, not what one typically would see in a forest....

4th why all the straw or hay type grass in and around the hole ? Well for anyone who has old time European relative will tell you when you plant a garden add straw or hay to keep the grow lose... It looks like these items where found in his garden. ie acid from chicken ,cow or hosre sh-t. by the way one of the oldest ways to age metal...

in closing these are my opinions, you don't have to believe or accept them , but I think this is just another way that some smart forger has firgue a new way of appling his or her trade to get big bucks from some over eager collector.. I believe this guy was a under study of B.T. Barnum and we all know what his motto was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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pic # 2 tabs.......

By the way Jan CZ , What exactly do you collect? I don't see were you collect anything. I have read back on most of your post and it seems your friends run accross a lot of stuff that you are interested in knowing if it is good or not and how to tell the diffence ? I am wondering why ????

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Dear Hanswurst,

wow, you got me! To tell the truth I collect mostly items I personally find (either when metal detecting or sometimes at the attic (that is not common because items are dissapearing and many people are afraid that thieves and Gypsies will housebreak their house)).
I must admit my knowledge is very limited...
Quiet often me or my friends came across some questionable item and then I am looking for help here. You guys here at GDC handled thousands of beautiful militarias (and a lot of fakes of course) so I simply trust your oppinion. Hope this is not a big problem for most of you, I do not have an eye for details and do not remember where or what to look for when spotting the fakes :-(
So, now is time and place to thank all members for their kind advices, I am trying not to distress this forum often. Sometimes I simply share pictures without further questions, just for "fun" or enrichment of this forum...
Hanswurst, thanks for your comments on the ring and detailed anylysis of the grass, soil and roots, it sounds logical - you have that proper (suspicious) look at things.

Jan

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20 years as a cop will do that.......

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Have no idea if this is real or not but have spent a few decades relic hunting on 18th Century sites. The majority of the 1700s silver coins I have dug are still as bright and shiny as the day they were lost. Once exposed to the air they start to darken over time. In fact I can't think of any I dug that were tarnished.

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If you guys have a direr need to believe in the this whole story than is not much I can say. I pointed out some real corcerns, from the photos of the guy that dug them up. I went through his website also, things just don't add up in my opinion.

If the coins come out clean as the day they went in is probably because coin is a higher silver content that jewelry. Most coins I believe are made of 95% silver, jewelry is made usually of .925 or sterling, That is British and US. Germans used 800 and 850 which means 80% and 85% of pure.

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hanswurst,, I've been to a few digs years ago.. I've seen rings ,coins,cig.case's come up from the ground looking pretty good!
From my understanding Silver needs Sulfur or Sulfuric compounds to tarnish it.. Much of the ground in East Europe is a nice black loamy dirt,,clayish, and or hard packed light brown,,whatever it is the Sulfur content must be low...

The reason you'll see a lot of old hay and straw in dig photos are ,,that's one of the reasons how they find the spots to dig!
Metal detectors only work 3 foot down or so.. These guys are masters! They find old battle maps,,look for depressions...Depressions are bomb crators, burial spots or bunkers!.
Then take a long rod. The one my Wife's cousins used to use kind of looked like a cork screw at the end.. They probe deep,,and if they keep pulling up hay/straw that's a good place to start digging. In the construction of bunkers much straw/hay was used. For latrine, insulation, dryness, easy to clean up and replace etc..

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Gaspare,
Here is a very interesting article about how bad the sulfur problem is in the The Czech Republic. Plus the website it came from.


It was cheap and available by surface mining, but it was also high in ash content, up to 40% by weight, and in sulfur content, 1 to 15%. ...
www.wisc.edu/.../.Document-divided-by-Chapter-with-Sear...nmental-Proble1.html - 27k - Cached - Similar pages


As far as seeing straw and hay I understand what you are saying.. The only problem is that hole is less than half a foot deep. Now I not a expert but one would think a bunker or latrine would be more than 6" deep. Again I have MAJOR concerns about this.....

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H.,,your concerns are warranted.. As far as dig sites go things are helter skelter.. Even when first buried many sites were all mixed together and bulldozed into one hole..

No one is giving the opinion of the ring being 100% good. In fact most don't like it and have the same suspicions as yourself! Sometimes we just have to wait to see the drama unfold and either there will be good complete photos that will show the characteristics we like to see, OR it will disappear into never never land and hopefully won't burn anyone!

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Great thread fellas, although i know nothing about these rings , your attention to the smallest detail is a great learning tool for a novice like me, well done

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The runes on the Ty-rune are enough there to discern their shape, and I don't like them. The circle around the Ty-rune at about 1 o'clock looks VERY fat. This is true of the other runics also. I realize that with wear, the insignias flatten out and get wider, but these insignia ALL look too fat. The date surely isn't typical with the out of proportion year date. Would like to see more photos, such as one from directly above. If I HAD to vote on these photos, I'd vote no.

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Not a ring guy here, but I certainly keep an eye on the going ons. Anytime a "ground dug" trove is unearthed my ears perk up. My ears of suspicioun. Some of the tales are just too fantastic and these stories creat an "instant provenance" for the seller. Niece to be able to say "I don't know who owned theis before as it was dug from a battlefield in Western Czhech Republic". End of story. A person either buys the story or not. I really become aroused (easy..not like that) when high-dollar items are unearthed.

How 'bout this one. "I was digging in Cave Creek Arizona and I unearthed a 50 gallon drum full of RKs, DKIGs, KM badges, Luft, heer, a few spanish crosses, heck even #5-100 golden party badges". Oddly,and only by coincidence, the dig site was behind a mail order store called POH.

Just my $.02


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I think that this ring is wrong. Perhaps FIRST prototype of a SUPERFAKE trying to get its HISTORY IN STONE. Perfect photos,perfectly staged,and hiding the NAME so noone can check on it right away just in case the name is owned by someone else so as not to cause any questions. The date is funny, the LER is not finished its looking like the bottom is cut off.The last thing is the area behind the skull. I could be wrong on this but I have NEVER SEEN ONE with that type of problem behind the skull on the seam. I am open to be shown a treue example to learn from though.The superfakes that are out there why could this NOT BE ONE? I sure think that having all thier DUCKS IN A ROW sure makes for a special investigation. But my belief is this one is wrong..There are other reasons to believe that sure,this german ran taking off the symbols of his rank in the SS so as to not be identified and the depth of where it was found kinda seems like the depth of nature taking over for 60 some years,,all too perfect to me..Just the setup alone..MK two cents,,TOM

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With all the fakes coming out of the Czech Republic nowadays one would be very careless to be not suspicious of such items.
I know nothing of TK rings but a bit about fraudsters. Not accusing anyone here but when I see the name of the recipient covered up that was ALL I NEEDED. Eek
Tarnish or No Tarnish. Big Grin

-serge-


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