UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum dead german insignia find

A man brought a box of german insignia into an antique shop,he bought it at a yardsale for 15.00.The shop owner is working out a deal with him on it and I have first chance at the stuff.46 items taken from dead germans on the battle field,a lot of it ss.Dog tags, collar tabs, cufftitles,rings, braclets ripped from corpses.He claims it is definatly looks original and several deathshead items.Will post some pics if I can get some of it bought.

This is a complex issue. The current trend of 'archological' ground dug personal items taken from 'facist graves' does disturb me, but insignia that were taken from these fallen soldiers or as POWs at the time of battle does not.

Just remember to treat the items with respect. You may be the last person to know that that soldier ever existed.

If that was American stuff "ripped from corpses" it would be a sacreledge. I think that was a horrible way to describe that stuff. Battlefield found is one thing, that description is offensive to all. I would have used a little more respect for the fallen soldiers.

Mark

I agree with Mark!

guys, I have been to some digs in the late 90s in Ukraine,,,there is a big difference in 'battlefield dug' and 'grave dug'...

If both are offensive to you Eric simply don't buy the stuff,,,OR you could buy it and write down where they 'might' have come from and give the ID tag information to the proper German agency..You might just help a family find out about a WWII MIA and where their family member had fallen. , G.

Well I didnt mean to sound so goulish about it,I dont know that all of this was taken from dead bodies just what the man said it looked like.Unless the german soldiers were prisoners and gave their rings and braclets away to gi guards, who knows.I dont consider a usgi a graverobber for taking momentos from fallen germans that were trying to put him in the ground anyway.I bet a lot of bringback stuff was taken from the dead,does that make all those usgis gouls?I guess I dont have as much sympathy for them as some do,have you ever heard of the holocaust?Now that was horrible.

I wanted to say Just use a little more tact, that's all. I seriously doubt if fallen SS troops were the same ones at the concentration camps. Those guards were a small group and did not reflect the duties of most of the Waffen SS.

Read some more books and you will get the picture. No argument here, just a plea for a little respect in the description used.

Mark

LET'S GO BACK IN A TIME MACHINE AND GET IT ALL ANY WAY WE CAN!!!!!!

There's only so many ways we got our pieces

They came from the dead,, captured,,German vets families,, guys that looted it from peoples apartments,,warehouses/confiscation piles..,G.

Eric,
by no means dont get offended, its just that some collectors buy things as that, collectibles, and maybe some dont want to know the way in which they were obtained. this subject was brought up along time ago, and it was a interesting thread.
when i first started collecting, i bought a luft belt buckle from a seller in belgium.
at that time, i had no idea what ground dug meant, and now i do.
i still have the thing, and i use it as a reminder as to be more selective.
i think you were going from the sellers description above, and was not your personal qoute.

Jeeeezz,

Every other eBay screed starts with " ... home by my Dad/Uncle who got it off a dead German". Most good vet stories start that way too.

Dave

Should those ebay sellers set the standard for others to follow?

Thanks Paul&Jerry. Kingtiger&Voice as far as reading history books I have read a lot on ww2 and watch the history channel all the time.I dont get the impession that the fighting ss and german army were these great bunch of noble guys.They murdered millions of innocent civilians,more were killed OUT of the camps all over europe and in Russia than IN the death camps.There is no comparing a us soldiers corpse to one of those evil bastards.Stripping down innocent men women and children and machine gunning and gassing them to death is unexcuseable.Bayoneting and stomping babies and small children to death to save bullets is their legacy.And dont give me that crap about only a few ss doing the killing, ALL the german soldiers did what they were told to do including mass murder.Talk about stripping corpes??? give me a break!They also murdered GIs.I could go on but i think you get the picture.What books have you read about ww2? They must have been written by Goebbels and translated to english!I collect ww2 german militaria but I dont worship the evil bastards ,they were *******s.I know the soldiers were "told" to do what they did but that dosen't cut it. The majority of them believed in what they were doing to the last man.I, like most americans are ****ed about what germany did in ww2.Your right about one thing ,i should have never made this post, sure didnt know I would make people mad and get smart mouthed about it.But not to worry it wont happen again.

Well Eric,...I appreciate that you dont differentiate between the "good" SS and the "bad" SS.

I'd like to try and set the record straight on at least one point here based upon my own research and readings. The majority of the executions carried out in the field on the Eastern front were the work of special police units and not either the Waffen SS or the Army. Yes they all share guilt to some degree either thru direct participation or complactency but the police had direct responsibility for this.
Jim.

eric it seems you feel so resentful why even indulge in this stuff .i dont see the point.kind regards judas

"Have You Heard About the Holocaust???"....
Eric:
What is the point in your above posts?
I understand you might not know who you are dealing with here.Nevertheless some of your remarks are a little out of line.
Pablo Sela

quote:

Eric siad, There is no comparing a us soldiers corpse to one of those evil bastards.

Eric there is guilty on both sides of this vast conflict most notable crime were committed by the Russians against the Germans, where in whole villages all the woman were raped repeatedly and thousands of woman and children were murdered in cold blood. It also happened on the American side, I myself talked to living proof, in one instance I interviewed an American soldier who when into battle with a few sick twisted bastard�s that shot every German POW that they had the chance to, and many time mutilated the bodies, yes it happened but rarely do we hear about this because it is an unbias view of the war and it would be labeled Political incorrect to condemn the victorious side of crimes and also the author of these books would most likely be labeled a �Nazi� apologist for writing such a book(David Irving comes to mind). Yes there were sick demented and murderous German soldier and we defiantly do get to hear about them, but that gets twisted in our bias society into a blanketing statements that make even the honorable German soldier get collectively blamed for the actions of others. If you do your own research and talk to people that witnessed the war you can draw a better understanding and mold a more unbias view of this the great conflict and tragedy in human history. Not everyone on either side should be held to stand collectively responsible for anything that happened IMO. If you should place blame on anyone, it should be the National Socialist govenment that started the war, do you honestly think millions of average German Wehrmacht and Waffen SS wanted to die over Hitler outlandish ideas? I think most people prefer life.

In my opinion,every person regardless of country,has an obligation to always act honorably and must refuse to engage in any dishonorable or criminal behavior.
I would suggest the Ten Commandments for guidance.

WoW!!! some of you guys can create a debate and contoversy out of anything. German shot, German dies, Allied soldier comes along and goes through pockets or removes insignia. Who cares? Lets not be hypocrites. Do any of you know with certainty that the item(s) in your collections were not obtained from robbing dead corpses? Nobody cared in 1944. It was a war of survival. Digging graves? a definate no no but I have met 1000's of you since 1982. I am passing judgement here but I very much doubt that many of you will discard the items obtained in questionable ways. Sorry for my opinion. I for one elect to keep any medals and/or uniform items taken from fallen German soldiers. If we decide otherwise a great deal of our stuff is tainted. Not everything was obtained from surrendered soldiers and warehouses. cheers, Ryan

As for the politics of collecting tell anyone that does not really know you what you collect. 9 times out of 10 you will be a Nazi, skinhead or redneck regardless of your race, religion or political composition/leanings. It only matters what we think of ourselves because my dear friends society has already pronounced judgement on us by virtue of what we collect. It is an ignorant outlook or point of view but sadly it is most often true. At least our family and friends realize that for the most part it is a passion and a hobby like any other without political or hidden agenda. The chaps that I have met in this hobby have been some of the most stalwart and likeable people that I have ever met, with a few exceptions. cheers, Ryan

Eric has the right to express his views as anyone else does, even if they run contrary to what one would expect from a member of a forum entitled German daggers.com. The facts remain and 60 years of passage has not lessened them. The holocaust occurred and was a terrible mark in history. The German people although not all personally complicit in the genocide do share the burden. Every German combatant,whether an active participant or not in murders shares the guilt as a proponant of an idealogy based on semetic and ethnic hatred. Sugar coating by stating that most soldiers were honorable and the SS did no worse than the Russians, or Waffen SS did not man the camps does not alter the facts, truth or perceptions. Democracies are as guilty when their citizens knowingly permit racial bigotry, hatred, linchings and murders.There is a collective guilt and a collective responsibility. This was the message that arose from the Nurnburg trials. The only dilemna is when the principals of Nurnburg are selectively applied. cheers, Ryan

One more thing and then I will shut up. This is directed at a previous statement. Remove every eagle and every swastika and SS sigrunen from every medal, dagger, tunic and piece of headgear and how many of us would still collect this stuff? Be honest we are attracted by more than historical facts here and association. We are drawn to the symbolism and more directly the swastika! We do not purchase denazified medals or daggers, or caps or uniforms with removed insignia or flags and banners that have had the swastikas removed. The very symbol that attracts us is the same symbol that so repulses everyone else.cheers, Ryan

touchy subject:

Thanks for the posts that were informative.Judas,I collect ww2 jap,german and us items because I like to and its a good investment,thats the point.You dont have to be a skinhead to collect it.Pablo,what do you mean"you might not know who you are dealing with here"?Who am i dealing with?

Hi Eric I think that Pablo was referring to the fact that members here have a good knowledge of History and factual information and that some collectors/forum members have lost relatives in the holocaust. cheers, Ryan

Sellick8302, I didnt see your last posts,well said,I like your middle of the road approach to this suject.I never thought about it but denazi fied stuff is pretty worthless.Why?They are still historical artifacts.I was watching the history channel and they had surving german ww2 soldiers on there.They said we believed in what we were doing,we were saving europe from jews and russians that we considered subhuman. Those of you that admire the germans in ww2 better be glad they didnt win that war.Now I will shutup.

Hi Paul your picture looks like a police dog training method for obediance. Am I correct? cheers, Ryan

Hi Ryan,
I dont know, but it sure is funny, wouldnt want to be that cat........I thought it fit the direction this thread was going

Hi Paul, nah were all friends here and for the most part adults. Life is far too short. Unless you take my money, hurt my child or steal my wife I take nothing personal, and I might even let you have my wife. cheers, Ryan S

Gidday mate, got any pictures of the war booty you are describing?

.

Take the bolts off all SS items and watch it's value drop to -0-.

Eric-Whatever happened to the box of battlefield
pickups you described, which started this thread in the first place? When I saw the topic had moved-back to the top, I got excited, because I thought you'd scored some of it and maybe posted some photos here...what is the current status of those items?
Still any chance that you'll get some of them?

dear oh dear are we not forgeting that the second world war was started with different points of view.
exactly what going on in this thread.
i lost my grandfather in the war and i feel no resentment to german people or vets,they were doing exactly what our troops were told to do,the truth is man becomes barbaric during a time of crisis why,because he can get away with it,whos going to question him.
you should not be arguing among yourselves you are all the same in the fact you all have a fascination with the nazi regime,people are right when you collect a nazi item you are looking at the swastika as the most important part.
if you all did your history you would find the swastika was infact a religeous symbol of the tutonic knights and was hijacked by the nazis
try to understand each others point of view without conflict

Most of you view situations with today's standards. Remember, WWII occurred over 60 years ago and standards were not the same as today.
Put yourself back in time. In the good ole USA in the 1920s and 1930s in East St. Louis, they killed people for the color of their skin by the hundreds in the race riots. Many examples of discrimination and prejudice ruled the times, so don't blame just Germany for such occurrances.
I often wonder what we all would have done if faced with choices during those years, especailly in an economically compromised country such as Germany. Would we have joined the Party to eat and have a job? I think most would and even been glad to participate.
Don't kid yourselves, morals and ethics go out the window for most people when it comes to food and a place to stay. Hitler counted on it.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: I am not condoning what occurred, just trying to give you a reason for the success of the Nazi movement.

As far as ripping things off of either dead or live Germans ,how many badges or medals have no pins on them ??Guess what they didn't just fall off they were ripped off.

I highly recommend the book "Foot Soldier" by Roscoe C. Blunt.He discusses in some detail his souvenir hunting during his time in combat.Things he removed from decomposing corpses etc. etc. as well as things he found on German soldiers taken from dead G.I.s an interesting book since this particular soldier seemed to get right into the hobby before the war ended along with a couple of his buddies.There is an interesting picture of all the items he took.Nearly a room full.Wonder where it is today?

I have spoken to 84th ID vet Roscoe Blunt by phone (several years ago).
He told me that a house fire destroyed all the miliaria shown in the photo in his book.
He said the only thing left was a picture frame which was located in another part of his house during the fire. In that frame are numerous Soldbuch photos of Germans he personally killed. Sadly, he did not keep the entire books, only the photos.
More recently, I've read somewhere about Mr Blunt attending militaria shows, so he is in the mix of the collecting world-how long that has been going on, I don't know. But he has to be well-aware of the value of WW2 German militaria and I sometimes wonder if he just tells people his collection burned-up, because he doesn't want to be bothered by people trying to buy stuff from him?
Another thought: I wonder if ALL the stuff pictured in his book really was bring-backs from the war, or if maybe some of it was purchased post-war? We don't know just how many years he has been attending militaria shows.
For what it's worth, M.B.
PS- the original question still hasn't been answered:whatever happened to the box of battlefield souvenirs, referenced at the beginning of this thread?

Iam just updating this post,the man that bought this box of stuff was told by someone that it was worth a fortune and is afraid to sell it because he might get ripped off!He paid 15.00 for it at a yard sale!Anyway the antique shop dealer(who is trying to buy it right) wont give me the guys name so I can try and deal with him directly.Might as well forget it.I walked in an antique shop in Greentop MO.about 2 weeks ago and saw a small chalk board that had this written on it "ask about my ww2 items for sale" then listed 2 german helmets,2 german uniforms,*** rifle,*** money.The uniforms and helmets were crossed out,I asked the owner where he got them he said a man brought the stuff in and said he found it in a trunk in the attic of his brothers house that they were selling who had died.His 2 brothers had lived there together(both now decesed) one was in Germany other in Phillipines in ww2.The man said both uniforms were grey,one had 2 lightnig bolts on the collar among other decorations and patches other may had been army,complete with pants he said were baggy in the thigh and tight at the bottom,helmets had decals and were ex.cond.A week before I went in a man passing through from Chicago looked at the uniforms and helmets and bought them all for 1200.00.Man said he didnt argue about the price one bit and his hands where shaking when he was paying.I have been just sick about it for 2 weeks!!!This may sound like a story ,you can believe it or not.