UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Skull mark???

Hell all,
I have never seen this mark before. Is this a legit mark for an enlisted bayo? There are no other marks, just this skull on the recasso.
Thanks,
Johnny

Johnny,
Definately bogus!
I would view any skull marked bayonet with extreme skepticism; especially this skull.

p.s. How did the groupee censor allow you to mispell Hello when it won't allow me to discuss a Martini ****tail?

Thanks Denny.
I guess the groupee censor believes in "Hell" but abhores drinking... maybe it is Baptist!
Thanks for the input!
Johnny
PS-This is being sold on Manions

Hello, Denny is right on this, it looks like the skull was handly engraved, what for bayonet is it, dress or combat? any other marking? Thanks.best regards,Andy

Denny nailed it completely, proceed with caution! Kinda reminds me of the fire piece with the Latvian SS stampings

Denny,

It was because a while back, a couple of guys were exchanging expletives that started with that word. I've reset it so now you can expound on your martini cocktail. Shaken, not stirred, I presume

Dave

Dave,
Thanks for your reply. I've been curious why some words make it, and others don't. Now I understand. Thanks again.
BTW, I don't drink alcoholic beverages - not a moral or religious choice - I just don't like the taste.

Johnny,
Sorry for hijacking your thread.

IMO this is a stamp. If this is a fake I have never seen another like it in over 50 years so I would have to say--unknown. Interesting, but I would not put a lot of money in it.

In my opinion the skull has been hand cut. If it had been stamped you would see ridges as shown on the pictures posted. If it had been stamped before plating and then finished it may look like this, but I don't think this was done due from my experince in plating. Check the images I have posted.

This is not a good Death Head. I have never seen a Death Head on the ricasso of a bayonet.

Richard Kuchta

Terry--OK--If not a stamp then why is it incomplete--Are you saying it is cut to look like a stamp? Seems like a lot of trouble and effort for small profit?????

The skull looks as if it's hand cut but I say that is a stamped skull. In fact it may even be a stamp that was made recently. In the jewelry trade I can order any type of stamp made and or font style of letter or #. That is why I place very little integrity in SS daggers with #'s.

Ed--What would a stamp like that cost?

Wish I could see this bayonet in person.

Ed

How can you stamp medal without moving medal around. I have a couple old bayonet blades that are in bad shape, so I think I will stamp them and post the pictures tomorrow. Should be interesting.

stamps don't cost as much as you'd think..10 years ago or so some crafty thieves had complete sets of die stamps made up for German dogtags..SS tags were everywhere and many got burned.. Just about ruined the area of collecting German dog tags.

Terry,

Point taken about the metal displacement with the stamping. If hand cut, what would someone use? A Dremmel tool?

Does'nt Dremmeling usually leave distinctive swirls/burrs in the cut? i dont really see any evidence in the 'skull' of that. Again though how would you cut it?

What about guys that engrave rifles and handguns.There the metal is cut out of the piece with small chisles and hammer.

If cut IMO the design would be complete--it is not. When you stamp if the stamp is not perfectly alligned part of the design is lost.There are many period examples of this loss of design.

ED is correct. In hand engraving medal is removed with small chisles and hammer. In the skull example were the lines are narrow the depth is shallow, wider lines depth is deaper.

In my SS bayonet collection, I have both stamped and pantagraphed Death Heads, Runes, & numbers. There are numerous styles of death heads found on the bayonets all of which are also used on the SS Rifles.The configuration and placement of the death heads, runes, & numbers on SS bayonets is quite unique. Depending upon the time frame, TV, VT, or Waffen SS the markings are found in different locations on the bayonet. For example the death head with a lazy S above it has only ever been identified in one particular location on an SS bayonet. Time frame is early 30's with usage by SS/VT & SS/TV units.

Richard Kuchta

Richard,

Could you be so kind as to post pictures of your bayonets with these markings? I�m sure I won�t be the only one interested to see these.

When you write in your post "time frame is early 30�s" do you mean the skull and bones shown in the first post of this thread, or are you referring to the lazy S skull & bones that you mentioned?

Houston, a stamp like this one would run between $30-$50 dollars.By the way this company specializes in custom logo stamps! You can also have them leave a wider area to prevent the raising of the metal. I too remember all those fake SS dogtags, they looked very convincing. As Houston mentioned earlier take a look at WKC trademarks and see how many are out of wack. Hey T Kissinger lets see those bayo blades you were gonna stamp.

Interesting thread. Also remember that a skull does not always indicate SS. Skulls were used by several units.

Below are some pictures from my test on stamping a dress bayonet blade. I have in this thread and other threads voiced the opinion that you can tell when a blade has been stamped after it has been plated.

During this simple test I found out a couple things real quick.

1. You don't have to strike the stamp very hard to get a good result.
2. It is easy to double stamp and hard to get the stamp level (square) to the blade.

In the first picture you can see the raised area all around the stamped area. Notice the area above the B and inside the B.


In the second picture of the number 8 notice the how the center of the circles are shinny (low area) and how the medal rises to stamped area.


In the third picture notice what happens when you don't have the stamp square to the surface of the blade.

I am in the planning stages of doing a book on SS Bayonets. The book will have some very good documentation as well as pictures of complete SS bayonet rigs on the belts that they were surrendered with. Also, capture papers and shipping list along with actual box that SS bayonets were sent back to the soldier's family in the US.
I posted some pictures awhile back that show some original death heads on bayonets. There are also a few of my items in TW SS book.


Richard K

quote:

I posted some pictures awhile back that show some original death heads on bayonets.

Richard, can you give a hint were to find these pics? I tried the search option, without succes.

I wish you all the best with your book. Please keep us posted as to when it will be published.

Kilian

Interesting shots with the close up lens but really--stamped or engraved--this feature IMO does not determine authenticity. IMO this piece will remain a "maybe" --unless more of them show up.

quote:

Below are some pictures from my test on stamping a dress bayonet blade. I have in this thread and other threads voiced the opinion that you can tell when a blade has been stamped after it has been plated.

Would the same phenomenon appear when the higher grade steel of a combat bayonet is stamped, or is this typical for softer metals as used for dress bayonets?

Hey Terry, Maybe when you stamped the letters you hit too hard and that would account for more of the metal being raised up so much. Did you try more stamping with a lighter swing? How about different types of hammers? Also I noticed the DRP letters have a wider flat footprint. The other letters you stamped are similar but narrower. I notice one thing with stamps that have that V groove is that they tend to raise the metal even further.

Ed

You are right there are alot of variables. I tried to hit the stamp with enough force to repllicate what is on a DRP" bayonet. I only had the one set of stamps, so I can't compare with stamps made with a flat bottom. If one had a jig to hold the stamps it would make the job easier and more accurate.

Many different styles of number and letter stamps and holders (fixtures) can be bought on line at many IND. tool catalogs... a few are MSC Mc Master carr etc.... I use these items almost every day in my Machine shop.. When you stamp steel you always have displacement of material in some form. You can file ,sand , polish to make smooth again of course. Put if item is plated this is a problem.. For engraving most is done using (gravers) buy hand or (gravers carbide or HSS) used with air . Hammers are almost nowdays not used.. These tools can cut hardend steel no problem.. A company called (glendo) sells everything but the talent you need to engrave...Regards: Jim