UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Chained on Offer?

Hello guys. I am stepping outside the box on this one and seek advice/opinion.

This dagger has been offered to me for around $3660. this is what the guy posted, I have bought items from him before.

", I am enclosing some photos for you to have a look at. It is a period mismatch in that it is not the original dagger for the scabbard as it is RZM marked instead of being unmarked as is correct. The interesting thing is that it was made by the jewish firm of Jacobs and has the exclamation mark after the motto on the blade. I have owned it for many years and was hoping to find an unmarked dagger in a plain scabbard in order to return it to the original configuration which would result in two very desirable daggers. Anyhow I have decided to sell it as it is and will be asking �2000 for it. If you think you may be interested please let me know.
Best wishes,"

Any suggestions?

Do I ask for more pics? If so from where? Or do I avoid and allow it to go on Eban.

I do hope you can help.

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I forgot to add. I have a guarantee on this item, which would run to the after the MAX show. So I could bring it along for a hands on.

$3660 is a bargain in my opinion. A few issues perhaps, but still a bargain.

The chain looks odd. It appears to be silver-plated, bead blasted or something. It does not appear to be nickel or nickel-plated. I'm not sure the skulls conform to known examples. The upper links, where they join the "cloverleaf," show kinks, as if pliers were used to remove them or re-attach them. The blade, grip, guards and scabbard body look good. That trademark is a rare one and, with an M33 scabbard, would likely be worth the asking price of the M36, maybe more. I just can't get past the chain, though. It just doesn't look right. Could be the light, angle, etc. Perhaps it has not been polished much, if at all, over the years.

I agree with Grumpy,The skulls dont look right,The mouth looks like Big lipped Leroy, and the background pebbleing is weak at best if any.If you look at the bottom scabbard fitting and compare it to the center fitting,top fitting and chain.The bottom looks solid Nickle the rest do not,COLOR IS OFF Also the attaching links to the clover leaf look to wide and show NO wear, where the would rub the clover leaf , Also Where is the SS stamp on the back of the chain, I dont see one..My opinion of course,The chain and fittings are copys added to an original dagger!

Thankyou for the info, dipping the toe into other areas is always a challange and it is good to know I can access such a mine of knowledge. I have asked for better images of the areas you raised. I will post them as soon as I have them.

Regards.

More pics, IMO i can see no major red flags. Please let me know.

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Still missing is a shot of the reverse of the link on the upper portion of the chain that would have a proofmark. It's important to get a look at it.

Rocker1 may be right: real dagger, repro chain. There are all kinds of repro chains out there these days, varying in quality. For the sake of argument, chained scabbards were in high demand during the period and it is possible, perhaps probable, some SS members had chains made by private contractors or jewelers and fit them to their existing M33 scabbards. Something else that bothers me about this one is the area just above the center band. Such wear and paint loss is unusual in that area. It could have been caused by the center band being slid back and forth to attain a decent fit to an existing M33 scabbard. If someone "dummied" this one up, shame on him! In its M33 form, it is a rare and desirable dagger. He probably thought the dagger was just another RZM type and was unaware of the rare trademark.

Here is what I see...

Worst case scenario it's a fake chain. Remove the chain and slip that nice K&M back in the scabbard and it's worth more than $3660. Maybe repaint, maybe not.

Next scenario... real chain added later to the scabbard. Remove chain and sell it separately and you have reduced the cost of a nice K&M to $2k+.

Best scenario... original type II chained scabbard and a nice K&M dagger. A bargain.

I agree with Rocker 1! Add to Rockers observation - Wotan's knot is definitely not right. I've never seen pebbling like that! I would say a repro chain.

It is possible that this is a real RZM 324 code SS dagger to which an entire reproduction chain assembly, complete with the center fitting, has been added. The paint chipping around the center fitting is unusual and the chain detail is different from what I have seen up till now.

Look at the upper scabbard fitting chain attachment. Does it look as if it had been resoldered ?

I'd like to see it at the MAX.

Dave

I agree with Dave, dagger looks fine, chain looks bad. Center link pebbling is not correct and/or defined as it should be. cheers, Ryan

Looking at this and taking your advice, I feel I will pass and let the seller know why. If you feel it is not worth the money even for a rare blade. I have been given 7 days approval if I purchase it, which will not allow me time to bring it to the MAX and return. I was never really happy with the wear around the centre support and the variation in colour and tone between the fittings. I agree with the concensus that this has been CHAINED up and was originally a fine dagger. Not worth the hassle methinks.

Regards....

Can someone enlighten me? I read,sometime ago,that Jacobs were not permitted to produce SS daggers because it was originally jewish owned.I also remember reading that the the firm was later taken over and continued producing edged weapons,does this mean that the earlier decision was rescinded?

324/38 is attributed to Klittermann & Moog, not Jacobs.

"Spock",

If you are going to pass on the dagger, why don't you post some contact info here about the Seller - some of the other Members might like a shot at it, even if the chain is bad!

Brad

Sure. I have asked the seller if he wouldnt mind, as soon as he gets back to me I will post it. He has been a collector since 1950`s and was a dealer in the 70`s.

Frank, I didn't realise you had posted details of my dagger on this site until I first visited it last week. As soon as I become a full member I will list it on the for sale page.
Geoff