UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons European Edged Weapons 1853 Russian Saber??

I purchased this from an elderly English lady at an estate sale about 15 years ago for $10. She had moved to the U.S. at a young age. She said that her Grandfather had served in the British Army and had this saber for as long as she could remember. Can anyone shed some history or information on it for me?

Grip

Blade proofs

Guard proofs

Spine marking 1

2

3

I would also like to have the grip covering and wire restored. Are there any high quality restoration sources available? Any thoughts or opinions on a restoration and value would be gladly accepted.

Thanks...

Ron

I hope this is the correct forum?

Nixie,

This forum is the correct place. does it look like the sword hilt will come apart ? That may be the key to the difficult of a restoratioDave

Hi Dave,

I'm not sure if it can be dismantled or not. I am not that knowledgable about disassembly. I assumed that an expert restorer would have techniques in doing so.

Ron

Hi Nixie,

I think the key to this sword may be the writing on the spine. The French Manufacturer put their name, model, and year produced on the spine rather than the ricasso.

Can you make out the exact spelling and dating?

The sword undoubtably has a "peaned" tang, sorry about the spelling, but those swords had the tank come out the pommel then "Peaned" over and finished to be flush then plated. You should be able to see this.

A good "mechanic" can repair this for you, but frankly, I doubt if the value is there to be spending a lot of money.

We have members that can id this piece and give you much better info than I.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I believe the saber is Russian. Am I wrong? Is it French?

Ron

Hi Nixie,
This is out of my area. But I believe you are correct. That this saber is Russian. The writing
on the spine is Russian. I'm not 100% sure but
I beleve it says "For Service January 1853 year"
Can't make out the first word so just a guess.
-wagner-

Thank you Wagner.

So, this is a Model 1841 Dragoon Troopers Sabre. (Russian)

It came into play to replace the pattern 1827 sabre and by 1881 had replace many specialized unit swords such as the mounted artillery, the cuirassier officrs sword, in 1863 the infantry officers etc.

Thanks for sticking with us.

Jim

Thanks for the information. Does it have any significant value? If not, it will remain as a wall hanger. If so, I would like to move on with a modest restoration.

Thanks again...

Ron

Hi Nixie.

I did a search on ebay for "russian sword". There are numerous of these for sale coming out of China at a $1.00 bid and about $100 in postage. These are not reproductions. If you will recall, the Russians had a war with the Chinese and I am quite sure there are thousands of these available.

There were other, near mint, dated to the 1881 model with engraving for a buy it now of $400 with no takers.

However, you are in it correctly as to money.

You might want to contact Vern about possible restorations.

Jim

Jim,

I looked at the sabers on Ebay. They are not the same. They have spiral grooves in the grip. Mine has radial grooves and was leather and wire wrapped. The guard bow is more squared on the China sabers.

China version

The blade on mine is longer, has more curve and the point is of a different design. Also the pommel is a different design.

China version full view

Hi Nixie.

You are quite correct. The models on ebay are the model 1881. I originally understood the spiral grip was a variation in my reference book. However, I don't really read Russian. I would not worry so much about the length. Two I have seen on the internet have different blade lengths whis is normal.

Still, if you are looking for your sword to be an extremely rare one of a kind worth a fortune, I doubt if that will happen. The sword was one of the main Russian designs from 1841 to 1881. For 40 years they built this model. There are a lot out here. All though the personalization is interesting.

I did find one with scabbard. The asking is $950 and the condition is quite good with scabbard. My observation is this dealer asks a premium. But, the sword is worth more than I thought.



Sorry I could not be more help.

Jim

Nixie, I have a small collection of Russian (predominately cavalry) swords mostly originally from England that were brought back at the end of the Crimean War. We all (or many of us) know about the poem the �Charge of the Light Brigade� - but the Russians had their own cavalry in action in the Crimea as well. The heavy and light cavalry examples are more or less exact copies of earlier French swords from the Napoleonic era. Side by side for the swords themselves they are basically the same except for the markings, with only very, very small differences between the scabbards. The sword pictured is for a mounted rifleman (Dragoon) who in earlier times had carried pistols and would sometimes dismount to fight. However it should be noted that in 1846 Russian Horse Artillery was also issued the 1841 Dragoon Shashka.

The pattern shown here is originally an earlier French one and was used by them for mounted (horse) artillery men, and there is a German (Prussian) version of this saber also. And a slightly smaller version of this sword was adopted in 1868 for mounted Russian artillery men (sometimes the model 1868 is confused with the model 1841, which may be the case with the above image (?). The model 1881 Dragoon Shashka was also for riflemen who would or could dismount and many of the sabers have bayonet scabbards integral with the scabbard (NCO models did not have the attachments for bayonets). Like the Prussian or German army there was no wholesale replacements of earlier models. Being done in increments over time for various units and (like the Prussian model 1889) it was the Russian model 1881 which became the �universal cavalry saber� - except for the Cossack units which received the model 1881 Cossack Shashka. There was also a model 1881 saber for mounted artillery men which was a smaller size like the pattern 1868 .

The early (Crimean) era swords never made it to China. Although I have seen post WW II examples of the model 1881 Cossack Shashka made on Russian equipment in China. Like the different model Russian rifles that were made there on Russian equipment, with sometimes leftover Russian parts, given to them when they were more friendly towards each other after WW II. I have not been following the reproductions from China. But at one time have seen some fairly good reproductions of various models of European swords that came out of India, which might have fooled those not familiar with the originals. And Iran also made a Dragoon version of the model 1881 saber, but with a steel scabbard and not as well finished.

The grip on one of my Cuirassier (heavy cavalry) swords has a similar problem with leather that is partially gone. And one of these days I�ll probably have to decide what to do myself. Regards, FP

Stay far away from those sword coming out of CHINA..

Fakes...

George

While their descendants became accessories to uniforms and badges of rank that was not always so. Thinking about Nixie�s saber, which I think might have some interesting battle history in its past, I was reminded of who was copying what from whom in the 19th century. The Prussians as mentioned earlier did a fair amount of copying in the early 19th century as well as on occasion reissue captured weapons. The Preu�ischer K�rassierpallasch M1817 were captured French Mle. XI broadswords. The design for the Preu�ischer K�rassierpallasch M1819 was borrowed from the Russian 1809 pattern Cuirassier broadsword (the two were used concurrently by different heavy cavalry units). And the Russian pattern 1826 Cuirassier broadsword was copied from captured stocks of a precursor variant of the French Mle. XI broadsword. And they were not the only ones copying the French patterns of swords - which also included the United States and some others. FP

"Thinking about Nixie’s saber, which I think might have some interesting battle history in its past,"

Hi Fred,

What history are you thinking about? That's my main interest. The history behind or could be behind this saber.

Ron

Hello Nixie, What history you say?

�Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred�.............

�Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred�.............


An excerpt from �The Charge of the Light Brigade� by Alfred Tennyson. Written to commemorate a cavalry charge by elements of the 4th and 13th Light Dragoons, 17th Lancers, 8th and 11th Hussars on October 25th 1854 at the Battle of Balaclava. The cannon that are being referred are those of the Russian artillery that were supporting the Russian infantry during the battle. One of the more famous episodes of the Crimean War my point was that there is IMO more than a reasonable probability that your saber was acquired in the Crimea by the Grandfather (?) of the lady that you acquired the sword from. Some of the swords that I have had tags or remnants of same indicating the same source.

I have same period officer�s fighting swords that make modern era swords look like "Munchkins" (apologies to L. Frank Baum). The cavalry was the 'shock' weapon of that era like tanks are now to modern armies. It might not be as pretty or pleasing to look at as a lot of blades. But (IMO) it also does not come up short in terms of actual history, as a meaningful weapon, with which battles and wars were decided. I think you did very well and hope that this little �snapshot� gives you a much better appreciation of what it is that you now have.

PS: I forgot to mention that the engraving on the spine of the blade is �Zlatoust� (a Russian factory where the swords were made), and the date with the last part being �goda� which is year (seen with later era blades as an �r�). Best Regards, FP

I also found a (public domain) 19th century painting of the �Charge of the Light Brigade� at Balaclava by Richard Caton Woodville. It gives I think a sense of what a massed cavalry charge would look like. IMO the artist exercised his right to use a little artistic license - because the saber blades are more curved than what would be expected in the mid 19th century. But would be more appropriate for British cavalry officers and men during the Napoleonic era. FP