UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Engraved SS Dagger

Check out the website SSBW.co.uk in the Daggers
For Sale.Whats your opinions?
Seiler (Yank in UK)

I think it is beautiful , but I have no opinion if the engraving is done pre 1945...

Cheers,

http://www.ssbw.co.uk/framesmaster.html
The pictures are really poor but I suspect this is one of the examples enhanced in Belgium in the 50s and 60s. it is my understanding that Belgian gun engravers used to do this on the side to supplement their income.
Jim

I tend to agree with Jim. Looks like gun engraver work. There's probably no way to "prove" when the engraving was done, but it does look like the Belgian work mentioned.

Little comment?
A couple of years back there was "keyboard
fisticuffs" over exactly this style/type
engraving on SA types put up for critique.At
$8000 bucks I would want concrete provenance.
The owner/seller/Dealer is a renowned "SS cloth
expert"
Seiler

Jim, can you please amplify on "it is my understanding that Belgian gun engravers used to do this on the side to supplement their income." This is news to me, but perhaps common knowledge in the firearms community. Thanks.


I am not sure why an engraving by a gun engraver would disqualify a dagger. My guess (I have no proof) is that there were far more guns engraved than there were daggers, by a considerable margin, in those days.

I have seen some really fantastic work on German target and hunting rifles, so Germany would have had a their share of engravers ?? And, Belgium was a country occupied by the Germans.

That dagger ? Who knows. Even a personal inspection would probably not settle the issue as engraving is almost impossible to date.

Dave

This is my dagger, and I am grateful it has been drawn to the forums notice.
Dave, you are 100% right as usual, some of the master engravers work is quite stunning, and can only be admired.
When I first saw this dagger, I was amazed at the workmanship, and had a choice to make, it was a family purchase by my picker, which means nothing, so agreed to buy it at normal price plus about $1000. I think it is pre-war or wartime, the swastika on the pommel is forbidden in Germany, the penalties are harsh, and therefore I think any engraver in peacetime Germany would have to be a very brave man to undertake such work.
I specialise in cloth, and love a finely embroidered title, or tab, in my view this is the dagger collectors equivelant.
I have priced it fairly in my opinion, not at $25,000 asked by one stateside dealer for such a piece, but at a premium over the normal asking price, I think this is fair, I will not get rich from this piece, but, hopefully someone will appreciate it enough to bite the bullet, and accept it for what it is, a beautiful piece of work. It belongs in a good collection.
Peter.
www.ssbw.co.uk

I don't have anything I need to provide here regarding the fact that daggers were routinely enhanced by part time gun engravers during this post war period for monitary gain as this is a well established fact. Go look at some of the information provided by Stephens for example if you question this.
If you,Peter Jenkins, care to provide some concrete evidence that your particular dagger is a legitimate example of pre 1945 engraving we're all ears.
Jim

Opinion only, but it seems incongruous that such engravings would be permitted to be applied during the period for official wear. This type of embellishment is decorative only. There are no initials, dates, unit designation, etc., as usually seen on presentation and commemorative examples from the period. Additionally, a "plain" blade on such an engraved example is also incongruous. If there were an inscription on the blade or if it were damascus, etc., the fancy engraving would make more sense. I can't imagine such a dagger being allowed to be worn on duty and there is no indication it was made as a "non-duty" memento. Certainly, there are authentic examples that have been mildly customized, but this type of engraving would be, I think, considered to be garish during the period. Also, it would likely have cost far more than the dagger itself. Without some sort of personalization or other special aspect, it makes no sense. The dagger here is highly attractive, but, as the seller more or less states, it should be bought for what it is, whatever that may be.

Hi Jim and Grumpy,
I agree with your analyses, I do not have concrete proof of period production, but if I did it wouldn't be for sale at this price, and I couldn't have bought it for the price I paid.
But it doesn't make sense to ruin such a nice example for a few bucks extra. Whatever, we will never know.
Peter.

Peter:
Notwithstanding the probable post war enhancement this is still a period dagger and it does make for an attractive display. If the price was right I'd have gone for it myself.
To place the pricing of Belgian engraving in perspective up into the 60s you could buy a set of three Browning highly engraved pistols in the $300 range. Keep in mind that this included the price of the pistols as well as the engraving!
Jim

I have had a look at the photos posted on SSBW; unfortunately they are not particularly clear - but even if they were pin-sharp clear it is not always possible to form a firm opinion.

Relating to the Belgian engraver who marketed pieces out through his brother, a dealer, in the 1960s, this does not look like his "style" for what it is worth - his style was to feature "scroll designs" rather than oak leaves. Thus said, it does not mean that he didn't try his hand at "oak leaf decoration" - I just didn't see such examples in his products. I met the dealer at the Portobello Road market, and saw the pieces first hand. It was acknowledged immediately that the engraving was modern - but I know that the dealer/collectors buying them from him did not pass that information on when subsequently selling the pieces. They now reside in many collections - with "absolute provenance" guaranteed.

There have been other engravers in Germany, and Poland, who also "enhanced" daggers. The problem is that now, almost 50 years on, it is difficult to be sure about some things unless they were noted and documented at that time.

It is also true tht during the early Reich period (1933-36), there was some unofficial decoration professionally undertaken on daggers, and it is normally of very high quality. This became the subject of legislation, culminating in the prohibition of the wear of daggers bearing visible, exterior decoration that varied from the original, plain, form of the dagger; particularly so if the decoration could be mistaken for any form of "authentic Honour Dagger".

I believe that an exception to this was permitted in the form of personal marking of daggers, for the purpose of ownership identification.

One feature which does attract my attention on this dagger, is the decoration applied to the spring clip on the leather strap - that seem to me to be a bit of "overkill"; but then perhaps that is just myself being overly cynical about the piece. All in all I cannot see anything which is actually wrong with it.

FJS

With all due respect Frederick I am sure there were multiple Belgian engravers with different styles doing side jobs during this period.
A very common thing for American GIs to do while stationed in Germany during this post war time was to purchase a new firearm either from the PX or one of the German dealers. They would then either ship or transport the firearm to a Belgian engraver and get it cheaply enhanced. I have seen some pretty incongruous combinations over the years like inexpensive Mossberg shotguns with fairly lavish engraving.
Jim

Jim, I am absolutely sure that you are right, about GIs buying artifacts, and then having them "decorated" in Europe before sending them home - as at the time in question the cost factor was not so critical due to the strength of the dollar. So I have no doubt that an inexpensive Mossberg shotgun might be found with a quality of additional engraving that far exceeds the quality of the basic item.


Getting back to the original subject, quality engraving will always cost serious money - but then you will have a seriously fine product at the end of the day. The problem we have today is that good quality engraving, done in the 1960s etc., is now old and tarnished, and in many cases it is very difficult to be absolutely certain about the true age of the engraving - seeing as it may now be approaching 50 years old. As such it may not look much different to some engraving that is 70 or 80 years old - depending upon what kind of "hard life" the existing product has experienced.

I wish there was an easier and more certain way to identify such items, but sadly it appears that there is not!

FJS

While I do admire some of the better grades of workmanship, I’m not a collector of modern (or relatively modern) engraved firearms myself. That said, over the years I’ve seen a number of both factory and post-manufacture engraved weapons of both European and domestic origin. With the post manufacture types often being Colt 45’s (SAA), Luger and pocket pistols, Mauser rifles, and sometimes the occasional dagger.

I think that Jim’s point is well made that Belgium seems to be the location most mentioned as the source of a lot of the post manufacture engraved weapons seen in circulation. And some other kinds of artifacts as well. But that does not eliminate the possibility of an engraver in the UK, or the U.S.A. (etc.) from copying a particular style of engraving. Having seen an engraver practice his craft using the work of an old master engraver as his guide. With my point being that especially for those unfamiliar with a particular style or source. It could be very difficult if not impossible, to make a reasonably definitive determination.

Speaking to the possibility of current practitioners of the art: Aside from higher labor costs in general, engravers also first require a lot of training and experience, which is now almost cost prohibitive except with some of the very high end firearms being produced. Or those (who have the option) of also using some of the more modern tools available to engrave for example ‘commissioned’ pieces. With (domestic) firearms factories for example going to roll stamping and other methods to mimic engraving.

But 40, or 50, or 60 plus years ago hand engraving was really the ‘only game in town’. And after the “drought” for their services caused by the war. Many engravers on both continents were only too happy way to undertake any small jobs which came their way. Especially, as even steady work back then, did not pay nearly as much as comparable jobs now might bring. FP

Hi Everyone,Heres an NSKK with a simular engraving,nats

Beautifully done.

I got to say i like that wow

For the SS dagger above I remember some +10 years ago one similar engraved SS dagger that came out together with the owners BO recipient group of Munich Bavaria.

I have had the Opportunity,to inspect this dagger at the kassel-show on friday.

With out a doubt the dagger looks fine to me,
the engraving also.

But impossible to say when it was done

It looks even better,as it appears on this pic's.

Gerd

@Peter,hope to meet you again in Flonheim.