UBB.threads

Has anyone seen an SA dagger like this from the SA Sport School in F�rth?

It was acquired from someone of dubious repute and although I�ve never seen another like it, it appears genuine. It�s in pristine mint condition�except for the blade and every other part. It certainly was not given the care and reverence it deserved, especially by the child who, apparently trying to see if he could throw it into a tree, bent the tip. That was also the likely cause of the scratched and chipped grip.

The obverse reads: �Alles f�r Deutschland�.
The reverse is inscribed:
�For special Achievement
SA Sport School, F�rth I�.

The interior of the hilt and lower crossguards are stamped �H� �E�, and the exterior of the lower one is stamped �0�.

The dimensions, fit and Eickhorn logo certainly appear to be authentic, and although I have not heard of an SA Sport School located in F�rth, it certainly could have been there in the mid �30�s.

Comments?

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I was not aware that the SA had a Sports School there. Only the SS.

But, we learn new things everyday

Dave

I do not like that blade...

The hilt fittings appear to be "Eickhorn." The blade may be a ground Rohm, given the placement of the trademark. However, the blade may be entirely bogus. It could be a reworked original blade. The dimensions don't look quite right in the photos and it seems too thin, possibly owing to the rework. The SS Furth daggers retain their original mottoes. The etching on this one, particularly the end decorations, look suspiciously similar to those on the bogus etched field baynonets. I think it probable this is an original dagger with postwar blade etching.

@ Dave:
Robert Hassler wrote once on 14.03.2005
There are realy not much infos about this SS school out. The school was first a forest sanatorium for people with lung problems. As the patient rate was going lower each year (final year 7 people) the SA F�rth took over this hospital and changed the inventory for a SA Sportschool.. In this early period still when they modifyed the building the the SS took it over for a SS Sportschule.
But this was also just for a realy short time maybe max. for one year then the SA took it over again in spring 1935. Finaly Sept. 1938 it has changed then again to a hospital.

So SA has been there.

Can say nothing concerning the dagger itself.
Regards,

Well that etch pattern with those bookends is known to be used in the period. All the parts appear to be right as well as fit well...
Having said that a couple things I see bother me a wee bit.
-It appears that the reverse lower crossguard has some scratches. Was a Gau stamped ground off there?
-SS F�rth examples were etched locally with the dedication in a secondary process. This one would have been special ordered at the factory.
-It appears that there are some grind marks on the blade between the maker mark and the etched panel, is this so or just cause the pic resolution ****s?
-Finally it would be interesting to get a micrometer on the blade and see if both sides were ground off and the whole thing re-etched. If someone did, they went to a heck of a lot of work to age that blade with a bent tip and all.

the SA took over the place for a SA Sportschool first, then only for a "short" time the SS took it over, and then after the SS it was used again from the SA as a Sportschool.

In regards of this blade, I am concerned that it is propably a copy.

I concur with Robert that the blade in discussion above is a phoney.

Why would it be necessary or desirable to alter the motto? Makes no sense, in view of SS examples.

I don't have an opinion on the Firth dedication or without further quality Macro photos, of the etch quality, however the pattern fit's the known Eickhorn "Raised panel" presentation blade.
The quality of the etch on the scarce originals is outstanding. Sharp and with depth.

However as Paul suggests it needs a micrometer reading on the spine and field. It maybe just an Eickhorn Full Ground Rohm with spurious dedication in a Panel etched repro.
The fileing marks maybe concealing a previous Rohm grinding.

-serge-

Hi,

Ok, I�ve taken some more photos and hope they answer some questions, but I�m fresh out of micrometers.

I certainly agree with �Kursk�: I don�t like the blade either. It�s graying and has a lot of pitting on it. AS I mentioned previously, it has not gotten the love and affection it deserved.

I�m no expert, but I think it�s genuine. It�s not mentioned in the most knowledgeable books on the subject, but I�ve never seen another one like it, and I find it hard to believe someone would set up shop to make just one fake.

The parts fit very, very nicely together.

RE: the reverse of the lower crossguard. A you can see, they correspond with scratches on the hilt, evidence abrasions from some corporeal trauma inflicted by an idiot with no idea of what he was playing with. Maybe he was playing in the street and got hit by a Mack truck�

There appears to be cross-graining on the blade, but I suspect it is the residue left by someone who decided to polish it up.

The sentiment of the etching also speaks to authenticity. It isn�t dedicated to the top athlete or top anything. We�ve all seen these kinds of awards given out at sports ceremonies to the nice kid who never plays because he has no talent but shows up for every practice and tries hard. Alternatively, he could have been the spastic son of someone with some clout in the SA.

The quality of the photos is degraded by the amount of reduction necessary to get them on the site. Hopefully, these will be better.

Tsch?ss.

abrasion

inscription

etching 1

etching 2

crossgraining

edge 1

edge2

ALLES FUR

Those sure look like Eickhorn etches to me.. the bookends for sure exhibit the Eick fleur de lys pattern like every other one I have seen.

John

After looking at these photos I have come to the following opinion.

1. There appears to be file marks evident as Paul has indicated on the blade.
2. Although as John has indicated it sure looks like an Eickhorn Presentation Raised Panel pattern but appears to be weak and not of the depth that that other examples I have seen. Original examples of this type really have a fantastic acid etched background with "High Relief" lettering.
3. Although not as important but adds to the confusion of this piece is the "Deutschland" in the motto has a couple different minor lettering variations.



4. I also suspect that the rough filing to the crossguard was done to obliterate the Gruppe code.

5. The Lettering structure on the Furth dedication is almost exact to the fake SA dedication as pictured in Frederick Stephens Reproduction? Recognition! Second edition pg.200.

I now tend to concur with my colleagues in the opinion that this is a humped-up dagger.
Looks like they took a Ground Rohm and made a "Furth" out of it. Postwar.

The pitting on the blade was done to mask evidence of a "ground Rohm". -sorry-

Regards,
-serge-

Serge:

At first blush, I thought that the TM, which looks correct, and the etch right beside it looked like the same depth, but when I look more closely at it, they do not.

Either micrometer readings or passing it around, maybe at the SOS, could show us more.

Although, a good rule on red flags is the rule of three... one is a caution, two demand a fair bit of explanation and some suspension of disbelief, three, as in baseball, means you are out of there.

And there are more than three here.

John

I do not think that micrometer or digital caliper readings will tell anything in situations such as this.

I have a digital caliper that measures to 1/100 of a millimeter and I have measured the blade thickness of many SS and SA blades. At the crossguard, the thinnest I have found is 5.29mm and the fattest is 5.84mm. That is a 10% difference and is the result of the hand finishing of the blades.

Further down the blade, I tried measuring the thickness of the blade in an etched area vs the unetched area right next to it. .02mm to .05mm was the difference I found.

This tells me that because of the difference in blade thicknesses vs the depth of etched areas, measurements won't tell the tale.

crs1

I�ve posted a better shot of the blade.

Taking it to a show is an excellent idea and I�ll do that as time allows.

RE: fakes. I�ve been taken in at times, enough to make me read all I can on the subject and if I�m a little suspicious, I just pass on the item.

Even the �experts� aren�t always on target. I can remember when the HJ Leader�s dagger was considered bogus. And I�ve had some items examined and was told they were fakes�but they weren�t. This usually happened when I bought items from a London bookseller who had no interest in 3rd Reich items but would periodically get a batch with an estate he bought. Some of these were quite rare and the fellow had no real ulterior motive other than getting rid of unwanted items. The best of the lot was a cased Eagle Order with Star, in absolutely mint condition. I asked if he could get the documents and he called the family to ask. Unfortunately, he said they didn�t want to give up identifying information and, he added, �they�re a bit embarrassed about having to sell off the family baubles."

Tsch�ss.