UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum anyone seen an sa dagger like this?

this is listed on gun broker Item # 149331329
the motto is upside down and backwards. is this a true variation of this maker rzm 7/31?

86 looks and no comments????????? What's the scoop?

Well, Andy, the question was had anyone seen one like it. So far, no one has.

I have seen one of these about 20 years ago. Tom Wittmann had one of these, it was said possibly for an SA mann that wanted to wear it on his right side. Only speculation!

Where did you aquire this piece?

i have one and the same question sir ,may i show another forum link dave?

may i ask the maker?

Several years ago, Tom Wittmann had one in his catalog with the upside down motto. I don't recall the maker, etc. Tom described it as a "left-handed" dagger for someone who had lost his right hand or arm. Don't kill the messenger, I'm just reporting what I saw.

mine is an august merten W.w solingen,,,,,,if that helps??

Gents,

I've seen two of these, both were originals and late RZM daggers. Don't know the real story behind them but the left-handed speculation is hard to believe ...

Best!

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
Several years ago, Tom Wittmann had one in his catalog with the upside down motto. I don't recall the maker, etc. Tom described it as a "left-handed" dagger for someone who had lost his right hand or arm. Don't kill the messenger, I'm just reporting what I saw.

The question that begs to be asked about that explanation is... how would that matter if the dagger is in the scabbard?

Here is the begged answer.. When drawing a sword from its sheath, it is drawn from the opposite side of the body,,never from the same side. The majority of men are right handed, and will draw from the left side where the dagger or sword is, with their right hand! To draw an SA dagger I would use my right hand, the same would be for an SA mann who did not have a right arm. Look at Max Amann,, what side do you think he drew his SS sword from? He had no left arm! He was a little guy, and it would be quite comical to see him try to pull his SS honor sword from the same side as his right arm. So the motto needs to be read as it comes out of its sheath, just like it is read now coming out from the left side. I would like to see period photos if any one has them with an SA Mann with his dagger out of his sheath.

thanks guys , this is very interesting info that i've never heard before.and it seems that it could very well be for a lefty.so my next question is wouldnt this be considered a rare and desiered variation ?

Gentlemen,

I have also seen several (not many - three our four, perhaps) of this variant of inscription. It is not (in my opinion) an authentic variation - although they do appear to emanate from the real period. My view is that they are most probably "parts assembly" from the period - and nothing to do with amputees having a different dagger construction.

Not very exciting, I know - but when did you last ever see a "left-handed" item for any other artifact that was in common service? A left-handed Gew 98 rifle would be quite something to encounter.

Frederick J. Stephens

so even though you think it maybe a parts piece , it's still marked backwards and upside down , so the blade was faked during war times? or it's post war made and matched with real parts after?

quote:

Originally posted by Siegfried B:
Here is the begged answer.. When drawing a sword from its sheath, it is drawn from the opposite side of the body,,never from the same side. The majority of men are right handed, and will draw from the left side where the dagger or sword is, with their right hand! To draw an SA dagger I would use my right hand, the same would be for an SA mann who did not have a right arm. Look at Max Amann,, what side do you think he drew his SS sword from? He had no left arm! He was a little guy, and it would be quite comical to see him try to pull his SS honor sword from the same side as his right arm. So the motto needs to be read as it comes out of its sheath, just like it is read now coming out from the left side. I would like to see period photos if any one has them with an SA Mann with his dagger out of his sheath.

Sorry Sieg, I don't buy the explanation that a manufacturer would take the time and expense for a product with a small demand, when a normal dagger could merely be flipped in a scabbard.

I don't have a photo of Amann wearing a sword, but, he wears his Sam Browne belt on the normal side, which defeats the purpose of the belt altogether for someone missing a right hand (Sam Browne lost his left hand).

Personally I think the backwards daggers were a small batch, made in error that slipped past the inspectors, or were never disposed of and were assembled post war.

Dwight you are right!, there are great possibilities, in things we can only guess at. Just as your thoughts of being a bad batch of daggers getting past inspectors to my theory ,, that I noted above.....no one will ever know. As time slips by the trail gets colder. It would of been great to work at one of these firms and to actually know what went on. But I still would not draw a sword from the same side of my body. Best Regards Larry

I can't speak for TW and have no idea where he got his information. The matter doesn't interest me all that much, other than mild curiosity. I'm not arguing the case either way. I would note if a standard dagger is worn on the right side, when it is drawn with the left hand, the motto is upside down. If it's "flipped" in the scabbard and worn on the left, the grip insignia face inward, unless the grip is "flipped," in which case the reverse of the blade would be facing in the same direction as the grip insignia. I am guessing TW's reasoning was that the motto could be read right side up if the dagger is drawn with the left hand from the right side. Purely speculative on my part. These things appear every now and then and appear to be made up of authentic parts. It would appear the blades are factory errors, as hard as that is to comprehend. It's a bit difficult to not be able to tell the tang end from the pointed end. However, help was hard to find in the war years and these blades could have been made by "the new guy," who may have been too young for military service or too old to see. I can't imagine any other reasonable explanation, but there may be one.

if so that would mean it has happened again and again at different factorys,as some were maker marked and others were RZM numbers? like lots of new workers eh?

Tom's description would fly in the face of a paramilitary organization that would never allow an SA man to wear his dagger in public on the wrong side.

Der Speiss of the SA, the senior troop leader/ (a sergeant) would have made absolutely sure that did not occur.

Why would a blade be made for a dagger, to be viewed in a way that would never have been allowed?

Does anyone have a reasonable explanation or historical fact, or is it just more fun to take potshots at what others have to say?

so then no one thinks they could of been special requested from different makers through the years. and that they are just mistakes by new workers? if they could make these by mistake they could of mede them by special request too.

Check this, unless the story is a fairy tale it brings new light to the discussion. http://www.wehrmacht-awards.co...wthread.php?t=415602

IMO It was made that way so the person having it plunged in their chest could read it.They would want to know what organization was killing them.If mistakes can be made on US currency,mistakes can be made on daggers.

quote:

Originally posted by wes_143:
so then no one thinks they could of been special requested from different makers through the years. and that they are just mistakes by new workers? if they could make these by mistake they could of mede them by special request too.

I guess the request angle is as plausible as any other theory, but the question is:

Why would anyone request them that way?