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#42911 01/26/2010 03:00 AM
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Hi Guys!
I would love to get all of your input on what to do in the case I am in. I have had 24 returns in the years I have been a dealer. Out of those 24, twenty three of them had legitimate reasons and I either returned their money or gave credit.
I have sold a dagger which the person wanted to return, he did it within 5 days of receiving it so no problem. When I received it the vertical hanger was absent and the dagger had been taken apart. It is not being returned as it was sent and has scars where it was disassembled. I feel he has now bought the hanger and I said I will return the dagger or buy it. I do not feel I need to do a refund since it was not returned in the same condition. What do you think and what would you do?
Thanks!
Bob

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Bob, I think you are well within your rights to advise the buyer that you will not accept the return, the reasons why and that he will not be refunded his money. I would advise him that you will return the dagger to him if he requests that you do so. Otherwise, you keep the dagger. Dealers are not the only ones who can be "bad apples" and what he is trying to pull is inexcusable and on shaky legal ground. I know of one well-known collector-dealer who sold a goverment leader dagger and it was returned. The entire dagger and scabbard had been seriously buffed by the buyer. The seller refused to take it back and rightfully so.

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I agree, you are well within your rights as seller. That is a HUGE no-no on the buyers part.


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If the guy damaged or altered the piece itís his IMO No one could fault you for that.


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Well within your right to refuse the return, the piece was altered. It's his piece now IMO.

Fritziii


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Bob,
I trust in your sale terms and conditions, it was explained that the dagger must be returned with the confines of those conditions..same condition, seven days, etc. If so, the sale is essentially a contract, and he breached it by doing so. Buyers must understand and submit to the terms of sale, and by doing so are entering into a legal agreement. I'm sure he'll never submit to ever have disassembled it. By doing so it would be an admission of guilt. These sorts of things can become ugly.

Here's where it could get tricky..a reproduction piece which was discovered through disassembly. In that case it wouldn't matter because the dealers breach preempts the buyers breach for disassembly..fortunately, this isn't the case here.

Why didn't he want to keep the piece? Did he end up with buyers remorse after the fact?


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Most dealer and forum sites have 'If the item is altered by the buyer, it is NOT returnable' mentioned as a condition of the sale.

I totally agree that if it is altered,cleaned,disassembled,or missing a part then the buyer does not have the right to a refund as it would not be his property to alter if he wishes to return it.

What might be helpful is showing this was stated in your conditions if it was sold through your own site.

Detailed before and after photo's of the dagger would also help or it's your word against his.
JMO

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My two cents...return his money...MINUS the amount for Vertical hanger...then Minus...a fair amount for the scars/damage he did to the dagger... Minus the shipping cost to send it back to him...Minus a fair amount for your time to do this.

I would for sure send this dagger back to him,(but not before I took "close up" photos of all the damage he did to the dagger) insured for your asking price, via Fed X or UPS and have him "SIGN" for it. Just in case he wants to get stupid, and say you might have ahipped it, but he never recieved it.

If he has a problem with this,then he has a problem!

Sepp

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YOU DO have a clause that states, "We offer a 5-Day return privilege as long as the item is in the same condition as when we sent it to you."

Then you can be a hard ass
and just send the dagger back to him,(heck that is what 99.9% of dealers WOULD DO)make him also sign for it,if he does not...then just put it away...he'll come around to your way of thinking in no time!

Just noticed...Collector to Collector is your web site...He has NO LEG to stand on,everyone knows your guys are 100% right as rain!!!

Sepp
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Hi Sepp And All,
Thanks, I truly try to do what is best and keep everyone happy! I have a feeling this will come up more and I am going to give him the address for these posts and your comments. If need be I am happy to share the emails we have had over this incident. If I make a mistake I live up to it and for the few times give credit for future purchases or depending on the time that has passed give a full refund. This is the only incident I have had like this and 99.9% of my customers have been a pleasure to know, many of you have turned into friends!
Subsequently, he does claim he did not take it apart. I think the blade may have been cleaned also but I am not 100% positive about this so I dropped this possible issue.
Anyway, thanks for all of your feed back!
Bob

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quote:
Originally posted by RFI:
Hi Guys!
I would love to get all of your input on what to do in the case I am in. I have had 24 returns in the years I have been a dealer. Out of those 24, twenty three of them had legitimate reasons and I either returned their money or gave credit.
I have sold a dagger which the person wanted to return, he did it within 5 days of receiving it so no problem. When I received it the vertical hanger was absent and the dagger had been taken apart. It is not being returned as it was sent and has scars where it was disassembled. I feel he has now bought the hanger and I said I will return the dagger or buy it. I do not feel I need to do a refund since it was not returned in the same condition. What do you think and what would you do?
Thanks!
Bob


Bob,
dear collector friends,

nice to see that you startetd the threat finaly.
Probably after hearing from our dear collector friend (whomís name should be of no interest now, but surly known by most of the collectors)

First, it was me who bought the dagger and sent it back!

but Ö please hear both sides before making a judgement
(thatís what I have do do daily in my business as a lawyer)

All started with the discussion on this threat:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...473/m/7730014225/p/1



as you can see on page 4 the dagger we are talking about was pictured there and there was a comment from Bob:

Hi Guys!
Boy, Fred has done it again. These have never been questioned until recently. All of the most knowledgeable and respected people in the hobby have no question to this dagger. This is a gorgeous !?example by the way
Best Wishes,
Bob


The picture and Bobís comment (not the whole discussion) was made days after I showed Bob my interest for this dagger.

He described the dagger on his page this way:

NEW ITEM Killer Transitional SS EM By Eickhorn Transitional daggers are really rare in the case of SA daggers. In the case of SS, they are much rarer and you almost never see them. The cross guards are really nice on this one as is the grip. Normally on these later daggers you see lifting of the plating on the cross guards. This one is not mint but as nice as you can expect to find. The blade is nice and I think you will be very pleased with this dagger!
Item: 1199 Price: $2999.00 10/2009


Not cheap but if it looks like he described, than probably one for me, I thought.

Bob may show us the pictures he showed on his website

Here is a short history about the transaction:
I told him on 2nd Nov. that I take the dagger
He confirmed the deal on 7th Nov.
Money arrived on his bank on 13th Nov.
Dagger arrived 14th Dec.
As I got the parcel from Bob via a friend of him, I was completly shocked, as I heard before about Bob as a honest dealer. But in this case, that's what I think, he sent a dagger for big money (USD 3000) with big problems on the fitting of the blade and a repair on the blade (at this time I noticed well the scratches on the nut and crossguard but this was in my eyes a minor problem compared to the misfit and repair of the blade. I told Bob the problems immediatly (18th December)and it took another 9 days to get the shipping adress and he first told me on my request concerning the shipping method, insurance and the customs-form what I should write on on 6th Jan.. I also told him, that I will split in two pakets and send back the second with the hanger after getting the money for the dagger back. Another reason was, that with the hanger the package had been over one kilo (quite 2 pounds) and there would be much more postal-fee and insurance, as the postal-clerk told me. All this, I wrote to Bob without any answering upon this.
The first parcel back was EUR 129,75, approx. 180 USD!
Just because the dagger doensít look like Bob proposed!
My shipping to the States was on 8th Jan., he got it on 15th Jan.
He didnít send the money until yet.
So nobody would send the hanger and loose more money, or?

What arrived at my home, you can see on the following pictures:

So please, everybody might prove, if he would have taken this dagger with the problems the pictures show.
I never would have ordered this dagger when Bob correctly described it with the unusal gap between blade and crossguard and the repaired blade.
So I trusted in his honesty by thinking that his description of

Killer Transitional SS EM By Eickhorn Ö The cross guards are really nice on this one as is the grip. Ö This one is not mint but as nice as you can expect to find. The blade is nice and I think you will be very pleased with this dagger!


The dagger arrived in exactly the same condition as it returned to Bob, same gap, same repair on blade, same scratches, nothing altered!!!

I asked Bob several times to send me pictures from the condition it left his home, but didnít get any! Probably he will post some now.



Pictures follow

Ralf

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The Gap

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Gap2

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gap3

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seam on blade

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seam pic 2

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seam pic 3

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scratches

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If anybody got pictures regarding this dagger from Bob before December (he sent it there) or anybody saved pictures from his site to archive them, please let me know.

May be we can solve the case by looking at the condition at this time,

THANK YOU


Ralf
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Dear collector fellows,

please be invited to tell me what you would do on my side
Thank you


Ralf
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For $3,000 I think it is reasonable for the buyer to ask for photos of the same parts he is questioning, prior to shipment to the buyer, for comparison purposes.

.

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If such issues as blade-repair and poor fit was not told or shown in pics from seller, I think Ralf is in his full rights to return this.

Maybe there has been some miscommunication about the vertical hanger?

I hope you both can sort this out.

Best regards,


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Well, it is a mess. Like they say, there are two sides to every story. If the dagger was unaltered when it was returned, a refund is in order. I'm not quite sure I understand about the hanger. Perhaps it was lost ir stolen prior to reaching Bob. That becomes a question of whether it was insured or not. If not, unfortunately, the buyer should probably bear that burden. The main point of contention seems to be whether the dagger was altered or not prior to its return. Bob should know this and surely there are photos of the dagger prior to its being sent. That should be a firm determination of the condition of the dagger prior to and after the sale. If others saw the dagger, including the one who sold the dagger to Bob, they should step forward as to the dagger's condition prior to the sale to rakra.

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Hello!
I am away and will respond in more detail later if needed. For now, if someone as I did tell you wants to tell me how to get pictures out of front page I will be happy to post them. Secondly, for the time in shipping it had to go through the UK and I told you my friend would probably be slow in forwarding it.
Some of your issues I agree with! I do see some sort of microscopic damage to the blade. The cross guard fit is not the best which is common with this period blade and manufacturer. As I told you originally I suspect you cleaned the blade but I dropped this since I couldnít say for sure. Although I am 99% sure it was cleaned.
The pictures of the scarred upper cross guard appear to be yours and not mine. I think it is strange you would photograph such a thing before we had any sort of issue. This combined with you wanting a full refund before you returned the dagger is odd. I did this once as a collector and received a broken medal grouping back, I knew we would have issues when you asked for this.
I knew I would not be able to make you happy no-matter what which is why I stopped our next deal before it happen. I would love to know what dealers you have bought from before because I doubt this is your first negative experience.
At this point I feel very comfortable with my position as being the ďright thing to doĒ. So, you can either send me money to pay for shipping back to you. Or two, I will buy the dagger back. Am I perfect as a dearler, no, but I do try. At this time I have two people with credit for any item that belongs to me on my site. I have had a total of 24 returns out of the many thousands of items I have sold. Since you have the hanger I feel you own it. You ďmayĒ have mentioned you were going to do this. But as I told you I did not understand what you had meant.
Sincerely,
Robert Iqbal
PS- The reason I responded to the first thread about this type of dagger was someone had told me my dagger was pictured by Jim M. So, naturally I would make a response.

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Bob,
dear collector friends,

Iíve nothing to hide on this case.
So I decided to show you the whole story.

I split the story in two part
Part 1: The beginning, a stony way but Ö
Part 2: Somethingís going wrong


In my opinion it would have been fair, if Bob told me to open this threat, so I can post my opinion.
He didít, it was a well known collector fellow. Thank you


As you can see at the last email from me to Bob, Iím still waiting for the pictures of Bob showing the condition of the dagger before shipping.
I waited that he will show the pictures to present him the ones he showed on his site.

So I will show you the facts:

First picture shows the dagger on Bobís website before I bought it
poor pictures, I know,
blade looks good, no gap visible (angel was well choosen, looks like some mirror-effect on the picture)
nothing to see from the repair/seam on the blade
but: if you look (with the knowing what to look for after all this problems) you can spot the scratches on the nut!!!)

Second picture is from Bob he send me after he found out that there are scratches after the returning

Some of you, dear fellows, are right if you stated, that I should have been more suspicious and check it better.
I learnd my lesson in asking for more and better pictures in advance.
But the parcel made his way to my office (as Iím almost of my lifetime spend in this nice rooms) and been proud to get such a beauty (I tought about) I opend the parcel not alone just wanted to share my happiness.
So there are some witnesses which can attest, that the dagger was in the same condition the pictures are showing when it arrived.

So it is clear, that the dagger was opend and scratched before it left Bobís hands

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after returning

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THE BEGINNING

Ralf to Bob:Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 12:09:18 PM
is this item (#1199) still for sale?
Which way do you deliver to Germany?
How much is insured shippment?


Bob to Ralf: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 14:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
I do have it and shipping would be 50 dollars. I have private insurance so that is free to youSmile


Ralf to Bob: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 5:20 AM
can you send me a picture showing the crosscrainning?
Do you send to Germany directly or like some other dealers via another EU-Country providing problems with the customs?


Bob to Ralf: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 18:20:11 -0800 (PST)
I tried to take several pictures to show the cross graining, it is difficult to get. Some pictures are without a flash and the cross graining is visible but very subtle. The pictures that make the blade look bad, it looks much better in person, I used a flash on. The flash made the cross graining stand out more but does not look pretty in the pictures.
As far as shipping, I can send direct or probably have a friend in the UK ship it for me.


Ralf to Bob: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:16:33 +0100
I take the dagger item 1199 and item 1137 vertical hanger shipped via UK.
USD 2999 + USD 325 + USD 50 shipping = USD 3374

So please send me your bankaccount numbers for transfering the money
I'll split it in two parts 874 and 2500.
First if I had to show the price in any case ;-)
As soon as I did the transfer, I send you the bills pm, so you can mark it as hold/sold
My adress is:
phonenumber


Ralf to Bob: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 5:43 PM
please see my email below.
I didn't get any answer till now.
So please let me know your bankaccount/-numbers


Bob to Ralf: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:33:05 -0800 (PST)
I am sorry, I just got back. I have the dagger set aside for you.
I am looking for the hanger you want, it is buried. I have one that is a little better and another that is really nice. I will send you pics of both.


Bob to Ralf: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:22:26 -0800 (PST)
I was just wondering, do you still want the SS dagger?


Ralf to Bob: Friday, November 6, 2009, 4:44 AM
why are you wondering if I still want the dagger?
It's me who is wondering now, since you told me you put the dagger aside for me and you want to send me pics of the two other hangers.
See your email below.
Since this email I got no more information!
So please send me the pics additional on another email account
dresde@rechtsanwaelte-krause.de if your email -if you sent one- had been blocked.


Bob to Ralf: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 07:59:43 -0800 (PST)
I think we had a couple of missed emails, no problemJ! Here are pics of the other two hangers I have.


Ralf to Bob: Friday, November 6, 2009, 12:26 PM
I got the pictures now, thanks.
One is marked 48/34: this one seems to have no working spring in the clip, is this right?
what is the other one marked? can't read it. Is this spring working?
On both: is the leather good and smooth and not broken?
What is the price for each?


Bob to Ralf: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:40:37 -0800 (PST)
I have the nicer of the two here with me at my store, the one marked 48/34 does have a broken spring. This one has really nice leather which I feel would match the dagger better than the others. I was going to list it on my next update but I can sell it to you for a little less since you are buying the dagger. It would go on the update for 425 and you can have it for 400 flat if you like.
On the other, when I go home I will check the clip tonight for you.
That one has the leather in more worn condition.


Ralf to Bob: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 10:52 AM
I agree with you, that the 48/34 matches better with the dagger.
But I can't spend more than USD 3400 for dagger and hanger including shipping via UK for all together.
Also I've to look for a replacement spring.
Please let me know, if this is ok for you.


Bob to Ralf: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:22:23 -0800 (PST)
I don't want to think about the dagger with the "wrong" hanger on it, and if it cost me a 100 in shipping that is OKSmile. So, you have a deal!
Please send me your bank details and I will get the dagger ready to be shipped out. I don't remember if I did before so I will send you my bank info on this email.


Ralf to Bob: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 11:47 AM
thank you for confirming the deal.
Due to the fact that the banks are closed on Saturday and Sunday in Germany, I'll transfer it on Monday. I'll split it in two parts. As soon as I've done it, I 'll send you the scanned bankpapers. So you can do the dagger and hanger aside and after recieving money, you can ship it.
My adress:
You'll hear on Monday from me


Ralf to Bob: Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:11 AM
the money is on the way to you.
I splitted it into 2900 and 500.
Bank-papers are attached.
Now you can put it on hold.
Please confirm the receiving of this mail (due to some missing emails in the past).
If you get the money, please let me also know.


Bob to Ralf: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 07:54:17 -0800 (PST)
I have this email, I will check my account in a bit. I have to go right now but will be back shortly. Transfers seem to take from 12 hours to 10 days, I can't figure out why the difference.


Bob to Ralf: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 08:18:58 -0800 (PST)
Thanks, your payment arrived today. I will get the dagger off Monday to Norm who will send it to you. He can be a little slow but I will light a fire under his feet so he sends it quickly to youSmile
Please verify the address below, better to be safeSmile


Ralf to Bob: Friday, November 13, 2009, 11:29 AM
fine to hear, that you got the money.
Adress is correct.
Looking to get the black beauty soon ;-)


Ralf to Bob: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 6:49 AM
has the dagger made his way over the Sea and reached Norm?


Bob to Ralf: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:52:34 -0800 (PST)
It should be with Norman, I will drop Norman an email and see.


Bob to Ralf: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:38:40 -0800 (PST)
Norm said he has it and will mail it to you on Monday. He said shipping will cost me 3000 dollars! He is getting more reasonable by the daySmile!


Ralf to Bob: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 11:29 AM
thanks for the personal tracking message.
Be aware, that the box to ship is made of 2 pounds pure gold.
In this case I will refund you the shipping costs ;-)


Bob to Ralf: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:08:57 -0800 (PST)
Gold! That is my second businessSmile! I have a coin and Jewelry store and I specialize in buying gold. The only gold I do not like is teeth, I don't like buying them!


Ralf to Bob: Monday, December 7, 2009, 7:46 AM
please contact Norman again, because the dagger didn't arrive until today.
Normally it won't take a week from UK to Germany.
Ask Norman, if he can send me the tracking information and the site of his postal service.


Bob to Ralf: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:43:15 -0800 (PST)
Sorry, I did hear from Norman and he apologized for not sending it. He promised to send it on Tuesday so I will check up on him and make sure he does.
Thanks for being so understanding and I promise you will be thrilled when you get the dagger.


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SOMETHING IS GOING WRONG

Ralf to BoB: Friday, December 18, 2009, 5:05 AM
after receiving the dagger and the hanger and inspecting them, I want to sent them back to you.
In my opinion, the dagger doesn't fit well together as we can expect from Eickhorn. There is a gap between the lower crossgard and the blade of about 2mm !!!
Also the curve of the blade and crossguard doesn't match.
The blade looks like chromed and there is something like a repair near the tip. The tip itself is also damaged. I compared it with another 941/38 I have, and there a some other differences.
The hanger itself smells like leather has to do, but 75 years later it should not smell. The clip also has traces of wearing, the hanger itself looks unused? That does not correspond in my opinion.
So please let me know, where and on which way should I ship the dagger and the hanger?
So please sent me back the USD 3400. Do you have my bancaccount numbers on the papers for the moneytransfer from me to you? If not, let me know, I will send it to you.
After receiving the money, I'll send you the dagger.


Bob to Ralf: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:11:37 -0800 (PST)
I am sorry if you do not like the dagger but I am confused as to why it took you 6 days to decide if you like the dagger. JR Meda and other very knowledgeable people saw it at the Max and loved it, there were no issues out of the ordinary for this vintage dagger. RZM type daggers are not made of the extreme quality as the earlier pieces. If you like send it back and we will work this out.


Ralf to Bob: Friday, December 18, 2009, 7:26 PM
I got this dagger on tuesday, therefor it was not six, just 4 days to show it some collector friends and get their opinions.
So please tell me where and which way to send it back to you.
Have you got me bancaccount?
Please explain me, what you mean as you wrote:
"...we will work this out"
Sorry, I'm not familiar with this expression.


Bob to Ralf: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:33:12 -0800 (PST)
I see, it was delivered on the 14th and not the 12th. Send it to my address and it has only been 4 days.
PS- Please send me your bank details again.


Ralf to Bob: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 01:56:16 +0100
my bank details are:
As soon as I get the USD 3400 I'll send the dagger and the hanger back.
Please send me your adress, where to ship.


Ralf to Bob: Saturday, December 26, 2009, 7:30 PM
I hope you had a nice christmas holiday.
As we heard from the States there had been a lot of ice and snow.
Are you and your family well?
To be prepared to send the dagger and hanger back after receiving the money, please send me your adress, where to return it. Via UK or direct?
Let me also know what do you want the items listed as on the Customs Form?
As well as what value do you want listed for the items?
Should I list the items as a gift or whatelse?
Do you want insurance? If so how much?
Thank you for your information.


Bob to Ralf: 27 Dec 2009 08:38:05 -0800 (PST)
I had a nice Christmas and I hope you did also! I originally though I miss-understood your last email. I have had 23 and now you as number 24 returns over the years and thousands of items I have sold since being a full time dealer. Out of these 23 returns the people send the item back first and then I will refund their money which is the same as all other dealers. So, please send the dagger as soon as possible to the address below.
Address


Ralf to Bob: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 12:34 PM
I think that sending the way back should work like sending it to me:
first the money than the item, that's what I know, or?
I had no reason to do not trust in you, you also shouldn't have any reason to do this to me, as I don't want to loose my reputation, because reputation is all I need in my business as laywer (MY BUSINESS WEBSITE).
Last way, it took me more than a month to get the dagger. So I would avoid to wait again one month for the money with nothing in my hands. Just fearing about getting it back.
So I please you, to trust this time in me, send me first back the money and I'll sent you the dagger as soon as I get it.
I also need your answers on my additional question, which I'll repeat again, because I'm not familiar with sending over the atlantic:
Let me also know what do you want the items listed as on the Customs form?
As well as what value do you want listed for the items?
Should I list the items as a gift or whatelse?
Do you want insurance? If so how much?
Please let me know soon


Bob to Ralf: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:35:10 -0800 (PST)
If you want to do a search on the forums you will find I am a trusted dealer with no controversy behind my name. So, you really have no reason to worry. Once I receive the dagger I will post pictures on GDC to prove that all is fine with it and then send your money back. This is the accepted way in the industry. I do appreciate you having been so good but the reason for the delays was needing to send it to the UK first. I did explain the Norm can be slow but 110%dependablele. So, feel free to research me and I think you will be happy to dot this the accepted way in this industry. On the customs form, I do not know the best way to ship from Germany so I will leave that to you. I know how to ship from the US which I do very well with but different countries can be different.


Ralf to Bob: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 4:05 PM
I trust in your honesty, probably you not in mine.
Can you please explain me why you will post pictures on GDC to prove that all is fine with it after receiving the dagger?
What kind of way of industry should this be? What is the reason for this method?
I think you should know, what dagger and condition it is?!
And I can track the post if necessary, so I don't need posted pictures.
Please explain me, what sense the pictures on GDC have, thank you.


Bob to Ralf: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 15:09:57 -0800 (PST)
For the pics on GDC, I just want you to know I sold you a piece that is original. You are returning it in the accepted time period so this is just to prove that all is original.
Nothing personal against you, but the reason is this. I am a known person in the hobby with a proven track record over many years. I do not know you, although you seem like an honest and trustworthy person, so it is to protect me. I did do this type of return once before I became a dealer, I am educated as a physician, and the returned item was broken. In the industry, basically it is a known person against an unknown person.
Me, you can easily research and learn of my business practices. But as you will see if you research me I am known for my integrity. I would do a return in this manner to anyone else so as I mentioned, nothing personal. I can probably sell the dagger to one of three people when it comes so I do look forward to getting itSmile


Ralf to Bob: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 7:05 PM
I respect your reason to protect you.
So please open the threat now with the pictures from the dagger and hanger you sent me, so I can post the pictures of the dagger I got and you can post after receiving the pictures of the dagger you got back. So we have the whole history, what do you think about this?
This would also be a protection for me for getting and sending a dagger back in the same condition.


Bob to Ralf: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 11:21:55 -0800 (PST)
I update my web site with Front Page and do not know much of anything about computers. I have tried to take the pictures out of there to send to you but I can not. I am not an attorney but educated as a physician.
I have no interest in cheating you so, if you want to return the dagger, send it to the address below. As I have stated and you can research, I am a known and respected dealer.
Contact me once it has arrived because knowing me, I will need your bank info again.
Happy New Year!
Address


Ralf to Bob: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 22:11:27 +0100
Happy New Year, too!!!
I had been out for a short 3 days skiing.
I tried to send the dagger back, but my local postal-service told me, that I've to declare the content for the US customs.
I've never sent anything collectible to the States, just get a lot the other way.
In Germany we have some problems with TR items, that's why you sent it via UK. My be you'll have some problems too when I declare as SS-dagger?!
So please let me know:
What do you want the items listed as on the Customs form?
What value do you want listed for the items?
Should I list the items as a gift or whatelse?
Do you want insurance? If so how much?
This are the same informations you asked from your customers.
So please be polite and answer this questions to me.
my bank details are:
Wire transfer to:
To become a little bit more save on my side, I suggest to split the package:
First package with the dagger, after receiving the money for the dagger USD 2999 we will do the second package with the hanger, ok?
Please give me a quick answer, that I can inform my postal-service soon.
Regarding, that you can't post your pictures on GDC, so should I do this for us?
I saved the pictures you sent to me regarding the deal.
I also did some from the dagger here.
Let me know


Ralf to Bob: HEADER LOST
in addition to my email as below (NOW ABOVE!):
I just reviewed the email and noticed, that you have to add half of the shipping (USD 50) USD 25 to the dagger USD 2999 = USD 3024. Please sent me this amount after the first package.


Bob to Ralf: Wed, 6 Jan 2010 10:00:24 -0800 (PST)
I hope you had a great skiing trip! I have not been skiing in ages but would like to one of these days againJ!
To be precise on shipping, since I am used to sending items out I have a good idea how to do it to most countries. I have only had a few orders to Germany so this is the country I have the least experience with.
Ultimately, I will leave these choices up to you and only give you my advice.
I try not to be a business man but ultimately, the dagger is your responsibility until it is in my hands. Once in my hands we are fine and as I have mentioned you are welcome to research me and my name and you will find I am known to be 110% honest. So, my opinions on shipping are only opinions and ultimately lie in your hands. On the customs form, you could call it cutlery if you feel comfortable with that. The value I would list as a low amount and you could call it a returned item. Insurance is up to you so I leave this in your hands.


Ralf to Bob: Friday, January 8, 2010, 11:39 AM
the dagger is on the way back to you.
I did everything as you told me.
Please let me know, when the dagger is back home
By the way: There was only one Parcel-service, which insured a parcel to the USA for more than USD 500. Even the German Parcel Service (DHL) didn't.
The fee for transportation plus insurance was unbelievable EUR 129,75, that's about 180 USD !!!!! see attachment
It would be nice, if you can help me to cover a part of the fees, thank you


Bob to Ralf: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:19:26 -0800 (PST)
Wow, that is super expensive! I want you happy so we will work it outSmile


Ralf To Bob: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 10:03 AM
expensive, but fast as it looks like:
the dagger has landed in Newark, NJ this morning.
Looking for another deal with one of your degens,
please keep the money als possible part-payment until I decide to take one or leave it.


Ralf To Bob: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 7:52 AM
I sent the item as you told me with email of 27th Dec 2009 and 2nd Jan 2010 to:
Address
Now I got this message:
XXX 14/01/2010 7:16 POST OFFICE BOX ADDRESS. UPS IS ATTEMPTING TO OBTAIN AN ADDRESS TO WHICH DELIVERY CAN BE MADE, NOT DELIVERED / A POSTCARD HAS BEEN SENT TO THE RECIPIENT
REQUESTING THAT THEY CONTACT UPS.
Can you please solve this problem with UPS and inform me immediatly.


Bob to Ralf: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:22:01 -0800 (PST)
That is the proper address and the same one on my web site, take a look. I will go to the post office in an hour or so, if there is a card there I will have the information I need. I will contact them shortly after.


Ralf To Bob: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 9:20 AM
Thank you


Bob to Ralf: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:30:47 -0800 (PST)
They did not leave a notification at my PO box, can you send me the tracking number? I can then call them and make arrangements.


Ralf to Bob: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 11:30 AM
it is UPS
Tracking-Number: XXX
What the hell are they doing with this piece of history?


Bob to Ralf: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:47:58 -0800 (PST)
If they do anything wrong they will be historySmile!!! Don't worry, all will be fine and I will go over there to pick it up when I close a few minutes early.


Ralf to Bob: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 1:12 PM
did you get the dagger?
Is all fine?
Would be nice to hear from you


Bob to Ralf: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 11:44:00 -0800 (PST)
Sorry, my life is crazy at times. I have the dagger but have not opened it yet but judging by the box it is fine I am sure.
PS- If you want a refund send me your bank info, if you want a sword let
me know and we will work it out.


Ralf to Bob: Monday, January 18, 2010, 7:27 AM
I hope your life is crazy in a good sense otherway I hope you are back well.
Have you checked the dagger? Is all fine?
Please confirm to terminate this open case.
For the refund or another deal we will talk later, as I mailed your pictures to a collectors-friend to get his opinion on both degens.


Bob to Ralf: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:09:01 -0800 (PST)
I have never been in this position before. I did open the dagger and there are a few problems. The first problem is there is not hanger in the box. Secondly, the blade appears to have been cleaned and it appears to have been taken apart.
I have never been in this position before and I think I have to seek advice from some of my pears on what to do.


Ralf to Bob: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 5:16 AM
I can't follow, what you mean:
About the hanger, I told you, that I've send it after the first parcel, the dagger went through and I got back my money for the dagger, please read the email from 05th Jan 2010 I sent you.
There was also a big difference in postal fees. Including the hanger the parcel would be over 1kg (quiet 2 pounds). Therefore the postal fee and the insurance would be about 50 EUR more.
So I decided to split the parcels.
I sent you the dagger in the same condition as I got it from you.
There had been visible problems that I decided to give it back.
I told you on 18th Dec 2009:
"After receiving the dagger and the hanger and inspecting them, I want to sent them back to you.
In my opinion, the dagger doesn't fit well together as we can expect from Eickhorn. There is a gap between the lower crossgard and the blade of about 2mm !!!
Also the curve of the blade and crossguard doesn't match.
The blade looks like chromed and there is something like a repair near the tip. The tip itself is also damaged. I compared it with another 941/38 I have, and there a some other differences."
So please check your emails and the dagger and afterwards please confirm, that all is fine.
I don't want to become the feeling, that there is something going wrong. I think you are also interested to come to an happy end.


Bob to Ralf: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 11:56:15 -0800 (PST)
First, I do not understand why you would keep the hanger. Perhaps you mentioned it but I did not understand properly. Secondly, the blade does look like it was cleaned but you say it was not. There is no question that it was taken apart when you had it. The nut was never taken off when I had it. When it was taken apart on your end it was done very poorly and
has left deep scars.
Out of the thousands of transactions I have conducted over the last eight years or so, you are the only real problem I have had. I had to negotiate with you to return it; every step of this transaction has been extraordinary. I do feel bad that you are not happy but I think if you research me you will find the amount of people that have not been satisfied with me and my services is well under 1%. This tells me the problem is not on my end but on yours.
My solution since the piece has been altered is this: The amount I received from you was 2900 dollars. I think you were supposed to send more but this is what made it into my bank account. Perhaps that was the price we agreed on, I would have to go through my records. Secondly, the price I gave you was a deal for the two pieces. Subsequently, after you bought it I could have sold it several times for the asking price. Since I only have the dagger, you now own the hanger. The price is full retail and not part of the package deal. Since the dagger has a major defect now and was not returned in its original condition, this is not a return. I will buy the dagger back or you can send me the money to mail it back to you. I did cover part of the postage since it went to the UK before going to you. You will be responsible for the full amount.
I can see that if we proceed on the SS sword it will be a problem. I do not think this would be in either of our interest. I think this should be our final transaction.


Ralf to Bob: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 12:23 PM
first, concerning the hanger I told you the reasons.
second, please send me pictures, high resolution please, from what you are talking. Please send pictures from condition before shipping and from condition on returning the dagger to let me understand what you mean.
third, please send me a copy where I can see how much dollars you got from me, as I filled in my bank advice to cover all fees on my side, so you should have got the whole amount without reduction.
I accept, that you don't want to do further business with me, me too.
Please send me the requestet information to proof your statement.


Bob to Ralf: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:22:38 -0800 (PST)
Firstly, you are right; the second payment was on the second page so you did pay a total of 3400 dollars for the dagger.
Secondly, I did not understand you were going to keep and then return the hanger. I have no understanding as to why you would do this if you did not want to keep it. You seemed to feel it was not original in one of your previous emails so why keep it?
Lastly, on the dagger, these scars may sound very small however, the dagger was taken apart and some people would not buy it with these problems. They are hard to photograph but I did my best.


Ralf to Bob: Monday, January 25, 2010, 9:12 AM
I'm happy that you found out that I paid USD 3400 and so far it was all well you got from me.
Concerning the hanger I told you the reasons.
Concerning the dagger's nut, please send me the pictures you took before you sent the dagger to have a look what it should be in your sight.
The pictures you send me shows exactly the condition it was when it arrived from you.
Please send me pictures before you sent it to me, that shows it without the scars.


Bob to Ralf: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:37:49 -0800 (PST)
I am trying to be fair to you and me. Again, I do not understand and did not understand why you would keep the hanger. I talked to the person who I bought the dagger from and he reinforced it was not taken apart when he had it. I am a well known dealer and have made many thousands of transactions and I am known to be fair and honest. I feel bad we are having a problem to to give the ďbenefit of the doubtĒ I am asking the advice of several people to see what the masses have to say. I think I am being fair. I am sure their advice will be what I think is right. Which will be either return the dagger to you or I can make a partial refund.

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WOW! What a MESS


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keep the money. he knows better and is holding a hanger for ransom, screw it.

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Hi Ralf!
I just saw your pictures; I see the marks you are referring to. It looks like they were there and I never made reference to these marks before. The marks that were not there before are the ones on the upper cross guard that I sent you pictures of which you requested. So, we are in the same shoes.
Bob

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After reading the e-mails it's a wonder the item made it to the buyer and got sent back to the seller.Looks like a lot of miss communication between both partys .I do hope it gets solved as it gives both parties a bit of a black eye.All the more reason photo's must be taken on all items and saved.


You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time


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I do not like the last long drawn out post by rakra very long winded and seems to be a tactic to confuse the issue . I would like to hear if any others have had a bad experience with this buyer.

PAUL

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,,dunno about the buyer but RFI is a stand up guy in my book. I hope this can be resolved amicably.
Scars like the ones pictured on this piece would not go un-noticed by Stevie Wonder.
The whole hanger chapter of this saga is certainly a questionable maneuver for someone that wants a refund.
just my peso's worth. Eek
My remarks and opinion are just that, mine.
Cheers
p.s. long winded indeed!


In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 ÔŅĹ
September 19, 1944



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Sorry, if my emails to Bob are long winded, but Iím not a native english speaker.
So I did my best to express what I mean. To Bob and to you.


But please donít loose the red line on this case:

Bob described this dagger as a KILLER and ďThe blade is nice and I think you will be very pleased with this dagger!Ē USD 2999.

The dagger had mayor problems and I think, that that would be reason enough to send it back, for everyone of you (otherwise someone can pay the price Bob is looking for and Bob can refund it to me because he still has my money, would be the best solution I think):
Blade repaired,
gap between crossguard and blade

Bob didnít talk about this, instead of this he discribed it as a KILLER!

Then after returning Bob suspected me, that Iíve opend the dagger and he could never sold it as unopend

Bob to Ralf: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:22:38 -0800 (PST)
Lastly, on the dagger, these scars may sound very small however, the dagger was taken apart and some people would not buy it with these problems.


To proofe this he sent me two of his own (!!!) pictures, not mine:
One viewing the crossguard from top and one viewing the nut from the side (the one everybody can see on this threat).


Regarding the picture showing the scratches from the side Bob admits on WAF:

ďThis picture is trying to show the slight damage also caused by a collector tool. I did miss the mark at top caused by probably the vet and I agree, that one was there before I sent the dagger but not the slghtly rounded efect the tool has on the multi sided place where the rench goes.
Bobď

And here on GDC he admits:

ďI just saw your pictures; I see the marks you are referring to. It looks like they were there and I never made reference to these marks before. The marks that were not there before are the ones on the upper cross guard that I sent you pictures of which you requested. ď

So please explain me, why you send me a picture to proof that I made scratches on the nut by using a tool and now you admit that this scratches had been there before and you miss this mark?

Also you are talking to me, that you could not sell it as unopend now, but you now admit, that it has been opend and altered by the vet itself!

It was my fault not to ask for a picture from the top, ok, but as everybody can clearly see the scratches of the nut on top and near the crossguards had been there before.
The man who did this is also responsible for the scratches on the crossguards.

Bob, you are suspecting me to made this scratches.
In Germany, the man who looks to take advantage of his suspect has to proof it, not the man who get suspected. So please show me the pictures of the crossguard in unscratched condition before you sent it to me.
Please remember, thatís what I asked you since weeks!!!
You never did it, also on this forum.

As everybod can see on the pictures you used for your offer on your website, the scratches on the nut had been there.
Shure I didnít realize them there, because it looked to me like a reflection as the gap on the blade looked like mirroring blade. The repair was well hidden.
Shure my eyes are getting more professional now.

But you now admit and the picture shows that the scratches on the nut had been there before.


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quote:
Originally posted by paulbear:
I do not like the last long drawn out post by rakra very long winded and seems to be a tactic to confuse the issue . I would like to hear if any others have had a bad experience with this buyer.

PAUL


Paul,
In my eyes it does not be helpfull to ask for other experience to proof someones reputation, because it is allways a single case.

But to answer it:
I bought a lot of pieces from different sellers (Tom Wittmann, Tom Johnson and a lot via GDC and WAF)
There had been only three "problems"
Frist one with my friend Paul from Lakesidetrader: he sent me a dagger and we came over to reduce it for some percent; was in 2008; he still has the money on his bank for a further business
Second with Gottlieb, I think, that this was also well solved.
Third wit Paul Carter from WAF: I bought a edged weapon he sold, he got the money, but is still waiting since weeks for a advice from me where to ship, sorry Paul for taking so long, will contact you soon.


Ralf
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past behavior is an indication of future behavior and therefore relevant

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Ralf,
What were your problems with Gotlieb and Paul Hogle?
Thanks!
Bob

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quote:
Originally posted by RFI:
Ralf,
What were your problems with Gotlieb and Paul Hogle?
Thanks!
Bob


This is not the threat to discuss this here.
But both reacted in a very professional way.
Waiting to see your pictures, Bob.


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I suspect your probelms was similar to mine. I am happy to expose anything related to our problem and I see this as totally relevant, I can call each and find out details.
Bob

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