UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Motor SA or Nskk Uniform, please help!

Dear Friends,
I got today this beautifull Uniform in super AAA shape. It has Lagercap, Tunic, Belt, Breeches and boots. Now I am a bit confused: The shoulder board is Westmark ( which fits because it came from the Alzey area)brown pipin g but the hat , Lagermuetze is a very early style with a black patch and golden eagle. Was that the Sa Wachmanschaften or did the NSKK have the same thing? On the arm is the old fighter chevron and on the other side, I see a black thread sicking out and I think i can see a drivers diamond place. Does anyone know the location of 1/M252? all Items are stamped, tunic had tag, belt RZM and SS stamp, cap also manufacture stamp and size.
It would be a great help if someone could assist me ( by the ay, found old newspaper in the boots from 1949)
Thanks for any help!
Dirk

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can anyone tell what the ribbons are for?
thanks

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So that it I hope you all enjoyed the pictures as much as I do
Dirk

The shoulder board and collar tab are for the NSKK. I thought this rank (NSKK-Mann thru Obertruppfuhrer) wore black collar piping. I know the NSKK brownshirt has black collar piping. I believe the tunic should have 2 shoulderboards, whether NSKK or SA. I also believe that the pants should be black, and that there should be an NSKK emblem on the right sleeve. NOTE: Since there was an overlap period when the Motor-SA was incorporated into the NSKK, and I've seen Motor-SA and NSKK emblems worn together.(For example, a brownshirt with bi-color piping with NSKK style collar tabs. ) It's possible that this is actually an SA tunic that's been post-war put-together. I ALSO believe that the NSKK had darker material on the tunic collar. I know nothing about the cap. Hopefully there are some NSKK experts out there!!

I may be wrong when I said there should be 2 shoulderboards on the tunic. Perhaps the early NSKK wore just one shoulderboard, just like the early SA (on the tunic).

THE CAP IS AN EARLY SA LAGERMUTZE CIRCA 1933-35 FROM GRUPPE NIEDERRHEIN. THE JACKET IS DEFINITELY AN SA TUNIC WITH SNKK COLLAR TABS AND SHOULDER BOARD APPLIED. POSSIBLY THIS IS A WAR TIME MODIFICATION DUE TO CLOTHING SHORTAGES. I HAVE NO LISTING FOR THE MOTORSTANDARTE DISPLAYED ON THE UNIT COLLAR TAB.
THE SHOULDER BOARD IS FROM EITHER MOTORGRUPPE, WESTMARK, NIDERSACHSEN OR MOSEL-RHEIN. THE CAP AND TUNIC AS IT SITS ARE NOT MATCHED. POSSIBLY, THE PIECES CAME FROM TWO SEPERATE INDIVIDUALS.

Hi
before 1936,NSKK had the same brown Dienstrock as the SA.
These collar tabs with metal numbers was worn after 1936 regulations, also I can say if your tunic is dated 1936 and before, it is possible; but worn a very short time.
A wiew of the RZM tag inside can maybe help.
Westmark shoulder board (later renamed Rhein-Mosel) with 1/M252 is good.
This unit was located at Wittlich, Marienstraße 2 in 1935.
Cheers

thanks you very very much! I will call Wittlich and see if there any infos there.
Thanks
dirk

Can we see the inside of the cap?
Erich

Hi Erich,
here the inside. It says he fbirk , size 58 and year 1940.
Any help?
Dirk

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IMO this cap is not an SA model. The SA Lagermützen, like other SA items, were required to carry the RZM label, and were not permitted to feature the manufacturer's name. By 1940, this style of insignia was outdated by at least 3 years, so it's unlikely to be period to the cap. The proportions of the cap are not as seen in every period photo, where the angles of the flap are closer to the front of the cap. I've seen several of this style over the years, always in this shape but made with different fabrics and lining materials, not RZM labeled, and always with the wool triangle and worn to gold eagle (in fact there is one pictured in the Saris headgear book vol. 3) --I bought one from a dealer who had a large amount of them in the 80s for $50.00 as a copy. Whether a copy or a re-insignia'd original cap, IMO it's not an original SA Lagermütze.

Colour of the cap seems to be more of a an army green than Political brown/gold, dark or light shades..a giveaway may be the colour of the grommet on the cap possibly this cap was meant for summer weight duties in another theater..

Can we see any tags on the inside of the tunic?