UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum gilding?

i was recently offered a kriegsmarine dagger described as having "100% fire gilding." when seen in person, i noted that 95% of the smooth surfaces (high relief areas are trickier to evaluate) of the scabbard had a darker brownish yellow, mottled appearance (complete with purple-ish fingerprint marks in spots) with, in some protected areas near the hanger mounts for example, some nice buttery, uniform tone, very shiny spots. from my understanding, the former areas were just oxidized brass while the latter were the remnants of the original gilding. the dealer has never replied whether my evaluation is correct, but has relisted the item for sale with the same description. am i missing something here? i would assume that gilt is gilt, brass is brass, but am willing to entertain the idea that somehow german daggers are different than the american, japanese, etc. ones that i'm more familiar with.

More than likely Just lacquer. Fire Gilt is Mercury and gold... This was done only with a extra charge and was not done on (production) navy daggers. I Think (just my opinion) Regards: James

It would depend upon when the dagger was made on whether mercury gilt was used, I'm under the impression that it was not used during the 3rd Reich period.

Gary

Fire gilt? I'm not sure about that but on the earlier 3rd Reich Navy daggers there is NO doubt that some type of thin gilting was applied. In many cases it can easily be seen especially in the recessed areas.

if i hear what you're saying, the surface protection of the presumably brass material used to fabricate the scabbard is just a coat of gold lacquer or clear lacquer over polished brass. that would explain why the brass so quickly peeks through. this was described as a "mid-war" produced item. of course, it was also described as being in "unissued" condition along with the "100% fire gold" surface. what would you expert collectors say if presented with a dagger so described with what would appear to be 95% of the underlying brass exposed and oxidized? still factory fresh so to speak? think i'll stick with 19th century weapons where gilding was a bit more permanent if somewhat deliterious (sic) to the swordsmiths.

There are a number of types of finishes used on German Naval Daggers over the past 200 years or so. There also were several types of metal used for the fittings. If you want to learn a lot more, I recommend you buy and read Tom Wittmann's book on the subject.

I think at this point, pictures are necessary, plus, who is selling this.

I would encourage others to hold their opinions until the above is clear.

Dave

200+ years of German Naval Daggers? Well, if you read my post, the dealer described this as mid-war. Now, as I also previously identified it as a kriegsmarine dagger. This would appear to take this from 200+ years of German daggers to right around 1942-1943 which would appear to be fairly specific. Unfortunately, photos don't help much (or at least the relatively low rez ones from the dealer) with flash glare, etc. it is difficult to really see what's what unless you have the dagger in front of you. Sorry, although I'd say the dealer fudged some and has basically said nothing in response to my inquiries on this very question, I'm not going to disclose names until I have more information, hence this inquiry. However, it appears you fellows are going to punt, so will have to go elsewhere. Since I know what oxidized brass looks like, and as this dagger looked very much like that - I assume that's what the surface over most of this dagger is. I'm a bit surprised that the small areas of what really looks like gilt are just laquered over brass (I'd expect to see some flaking at the edges if it were), but you guys are the experts.

Yes, Sir, indeed, you will find some of the hobby's most knowledgeable and informed collectors here.

But, without pictures or a dealer site reference, your question(s) cannot be answered.

Dave
Admin

Gold is gold and it does not tone, turn brown, or mottle. Whereas brass will do all of these things and more. Posted below (for reference purposes) is a fire gilt lion head. With the gold worn from some of the high spots, which do show the effect of aging on the brass base metal. In the second image fire gilt was used to highlight the hand engraving on a 200+ year old cavalry officer's saber. With the heat from the process driving off the mercury as a vapor, as well as causing the steel in the blade to become heat blued (oxidized). FP

In this image it does not show it very well, but the gold is not evenly/smoothly distributed like electroplating. It is uneven with a somewhat rough texture in places, which was result of the gold/mercury amalgam forming small clumps as the mercury was vaporized leaving the gold behind.

While these images might help. As Dave stated, without pictures of the item in question all that can be done at this point is to provide general information. Along with possibly a little speculation as to what the dealer is trying to sell. FP

Houston is certainly right that Prussian/German daggers as early 1800 were gilded. All of our pieces produced between 1800 and 1850 have gold in the recesses. During the Imperial period (1872-1918) you could order your daggers with one of three gold coatings. Two were washes and called vergoldet and doppelt(double)vergoldet. The other choice was a fine feuervergold or fire gilding. During the "gold for iron" time mid 1916 to 1918 navy weapons changed from brass to steel. For the most part they were still plated, but were given a flash coat of copper to make the gold adhere to the metal.
For TR navy pieces I have seen, laquer over polished brass, a thin gold wash and Eickhorn on some of their pieces has a thick double wash almost a plate, like the doppelt vergoldet of Imperial times. Late Aluminium and pot metal TR navy daggers were generally just washed and it did not adhere were well.