UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum NSKK High Leader - An Alternate Discussion

I suggest a look at the NSKK Honor Dagger that has been so popular recently, but from a different slant.

Let�s consider it from the profit motive. My point is that every fake or �enhanced� dagger or medal or uniform or helmet that I have every seen was concocted to sell at a profit.

If I have read his comments correctly, Frederick J. Stephens believes that the basic starting point for the Huhnlein-signed NSKK Honor Dagger (that he considers fake) is a real SA Honor Dagger. This is the SA Honor Dagger with oak leaf crossguards, a Damascus steel blade with the SA motto, and a leather covered scabbard with panel outline to the scabbard fittings.

To this SA Honor Dagger, one of two types of chain is added and the Damascus steel blade is reworked to add the Huhnlein signature or perhaps (?) replaced with a high quality reproduction blade with that signature.

Over the last 35-40 years 15-20 of these Huhnlein-signed NSKK Honor Daggers have turned up with the latest being the example Craig Gottlieb found. I got the 15-20 number a while back when this dagger was first discussed by asking various dealers and collectors. It could be wrong, but that is what they remember. If anyone can be more precise about the numbers, please speak up.

I think that the SA Honor Dagger has always been hard to find and I also think that it has always been more valuable than a Huhnlein-signed NSKK Honor Dagger. Again, confirmation or correction is requested.

Therefore, it seems that someone has acquired rare SA Honor Daggers and incurred added expense to buy and add one of two types of chain and rework or replace the blade only to sell the resultant NSKK Honor Dagger for less than it cost him ?

So, where is the profit motive ?


Dave

Dave: I actually assert that there is no profit motive. Fred will say (and again, this is as best as I can do to represent his theory, but I urge him to correct me by refining it) that someone figured they could sell an "extra dagger type" to collectors by creating this piece. Sort of like someone gold plating a postal dagger, and selling them as "postal general daggers" (this never happened, but the theory is the same).

The only problem with this theory is that it is completely at odds with the manner by which the NSKKs have surfaced over the years. Unless you believe in a global conspiracy to "hatch" these slowly, over a period of 4 decades, all over the world, often at almost no cost to one of the sellers, this scenario is highly unlikely.

Also, in an effort to keep these threads "pure" lets keep any off-track commentary out, and lets also make a commitment to be civil and respectful, and to choose our words carefully.

Blades have been created for specific collector(s) since some of the junk Atwood dumped on Dutch Heilmann before Angolia's first dagger book was ever written (engraved, special branches, "prototypes", etc). Some of those now seem to "reappear" with "provenance." Same with long known never existed production daggers. After 30-40 years the right name can say whatever and it's accepted, such as the "fat man" RAD, well known to be bad by anyone around since it appeared. These fakes are now as old as original daggers were when the hobby expanded in the late 60s and 70s, but with actual age and a "name" selling them, people buy them. Same with a "1st model Railway." I never heard any blade collector in it since the start (60s-70s) who believed they are anything but an Army with a grip that changed color due to composition after several decades and they laugh at anyone buying them. Some of the engraved items are laughable, but accepted by those who didn't see the joke the first time around. Worst part is to ruin a nice piece to make more money. The greed factor today is so far past sane it defies description. That goes from artificial created markets out of long established cost ratios (Army, HJ, SA, because there are a ton of them) to nuts prices compared to actual value, and of course fakes and modified. None of this is regards the NSKK being discussed, just a reminder not a new idea or trend to make items "more" than what something really is/was or is really worth. For years an SA was 30-40 and a TENO leader 1,000. Gradual increases of course. So 25 SAs equaled a Teno. Now a Teno is 7-8000 and an SA 800-1500 ?? The ratio of existing items is the same, those holding mass numbers of SAs created the market. And most of what turns up is common types so they squeeze the newer collectors with that. And I was there when 1 still well known dealer was buying all the SAs he could decades ago (and who hasn't personally collected militaria in years). If you have a large number of the price base, you can create a market. 10-15 HJ pocket knives equals a Teno ? Get real, market and pricing created because they were available in quantity to hoard at reasonable cost and are most of what dealers can buy to resell. Have to admire the thought process and effort in making it happen. For years prices were prices, you haggeled 10%. Now the norm is ask 3 to 5 times what it's worth hoping to snare an idiot, then have a "reduction" or "sale" or to "make room for inventory (always loved that one) of 30, 40, 50% when it doesn't sell (and still make money at the lowest number).

Dave,

I will agree with you that the usual motive for faking or altering items is one of profit. We can exclude fakes where the reason for faking was that of being a prank (we do know that that happens, from time to time). This business with the "Huhnlein" pieces must be motivated by money at one point or another.

Do you agree that the "regular steel blade" versions bearing Huhnlein signature (and SA rune/or sometimes a Motorsports dedication) have in fact been created for the purpose of making a profit? Or are all these examples of Huhnlein pieces totally authentic examples? Please - what is your opinion on this?

Regarding the specimens under review, I acknowledge that I consider that the basic dagger (Honour guards, grip, damascus blade, basic scabbard shell and upper and lower fittings) seem - in my opinion - to be original pieces, and apparently SA ones, at that.

Just to avoid any misunderstanding of what I say, my suspicions concerning these pieces emerges from the observation of what I consider to be faked hallmarks and "Gahr Munich" markings on the back of the cartouche of two examples. Because of this observation, I am obliged to view all other examples as questionable; because if the hallmark is faked - then what else might be faked, even if it is built around a basically original item?

Just for the record, I have not (to date) observed any Huhnlein piece that has a modern damascus blade - so far these blades appear to be authentic SA Honour Dagger blades.

You make a very interesting point, Dave, with your observation (and I quote you here): "Over the last 35-40 years 15-20 of these Huhnlein-signed NSKK Honor Daggers have turned up with the latest being the example Craig Gottlieb found."

This is intriguing, and surprising, and I confess that this is rather more than the eight or so NSKK Huhnlein's that I know about. The surprising part, however - concerning your observation - is the notable proliferation of these Huhnleins. 15-20 examples you say, and of course - all this is plus other examples noted elsewhere. Well, I feel you must agree, this is really quite a lot of Huhnlein Honour Daggers.

I may be wrong in this - and anybody who can show that I am factually in error is welcomed to demonstrate that fact - but it is my opinion that the NSKK Honour Dagger is a rare beast. In fact I would go so far as to say that the statistical situation is that the NSKK Honour Dagger is of greater scarcity than both the SA and SS Honour Daggers - it really is that rare.

The comparatively small size of the organisation would suggest that it must be in a minority of honour pieces. That you, Dave, have identified 15-20 examples is a testament to your diligence in genuinely wanting to record the facts - I do not dispute your claim, it is just a curious feature that these items seem to be far more common than the available information suggests that they should be. Couple that comment with the observation of faked up hallmarks, and the general crudity of the chain and centre mount assembly - I can only say that I think that this matter deserve much closer attention.

I maintain my view that there is something amiss with these Huhnlein pieces.

Yours, respectfully,

Frederick J. Stephens

Fred: I personally believe they are rarer than NSKK or SA Honor Daggers of any type. Since we have no idea what they were created for, I don't speculate as to the number. We have two instances where NSKK men of General rank are tied to them (Offermann and now Gruner), so there is a trend there. But it's too small a sample to form any credible conclusion. Of course, we also have a Chained SS Honor with Schwarz inscription, that was given to a 1st Lt, so maybe rank had nothing to do with such gifts.

Craig,

You have made the following statement:
"We have two instances where NSKK men of General rank are tied to them (Offermann and now Gruner), so there is a trend there."

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am not sure that Gruner is of "General (officer level)" rank. Do we have the evidence for this?

Secondly, I am of the opinion that Gruner was in the Motor-SA Brigade "Bayern-Ostmark". This does not, of course, preclude the possibility that he may have transferred to the NSKK at some later date - as indeed the entire Motor Brigade may have been absorbed into the NSKK.

The question is; When did this occur?

I realise that these questions are troublesome, and interfere with your cavalier claims for your dagger. But, seriously Craig, if you are going to make claims concerning the original owner of this dagger - then do be prepared for some searching questions.

On this I will now say no more. I await - as indeed many other GD members await - the full publication of all your photographs of the piece.

Perhaps, then, we can approach the subject of the dagger in a more enlightened manner.

With respect, and best wishes.

Frederick

These are not troublesome questions at all, and they can all be answered in good time. Gruner was a Brigadefuhrer in 1941 according to Erich Benndorff, and Erich Benndorff will provide his reference for this (I have copied him on this thread). Erich can fill you in on the fineries of SA unit structure. He is I would argue well-respected, and acknowledged as an expert in this area of research. In the interim, here is an online reference from another researcher, who listed Gruner as a Brigadefuhrer:

http://forum.axishistory.com/v...f=5&t=23298&p=202487

Craig, What rank was he, or special achievements accomplished, when the dagger was made? Or are you saying that H�hnlein had a batch of daggers already made and stored, and that he presented one to Gr�ner on his promotion before he (H�hnlein) died in 1942? FP

Why are there so few early NSKK examples known with the small double oval makers mark without the chains?. Very very rare pieces and it seems by comparison that there are substantially more chained examples.

I received the c/c and will post the info as soon as I can re-locate it.
Erich

To me it's truly a shame that someone in our collecting community didn't acquire the Eickhorn factory ledgers from this period when they came on to the market a few years back. The answer to this question and probably others are perhaps in those records.
Jim

Eickhorn is still there. I took one of my items there a few years back. I met the son and the father. The father commented on my item. So although they do not have many paper records left, they do have memories.

Why do we avoid approaching them?

The son did ask me if I thought there was a market to be catered for in restoration. I did not have an answer at the time.

Jorg Eickhorn no longer with the company he has started another I think (cannot use the Eickhorn name.?Must of sold it right after you were there.. Nobody is left of the Eickhorns who would know..It has moved and is owned by a non German..Regards: James

quote:

The son did ask me if I thought there was a market to be catered for in restoration. I did not have an answer at the time.

I don't know how long ago this was but I would think that there's is a definite market for a factory restoration. However with 3rd Reich items I don't know how this would play out with the authorities. A pistol, from Colt for example,with not usually take the financial drubbing for a factory refinish that the typical pistol with a refinish will take in the marketplace.
But we're straying from this thread. The point I was trying to make above is there are Eickhorn factory records in existence and the documented shipment of special presentation NSKK daggers to Huhnleins' offices would certainly tell the tale here.
Jim

Many period chained SA Honor versions with the early Eickhorn TM are period upgrades. NSKK's IMO can be the same. Can some be post war upgrades? Of course-and some of the SA's also. If original parts are used-can we tell the difference? Maybe. BUT--to me the testimony of several respected collectors who have given their word( unless proven to be untrue) is all I need.

Fred Prinz: I am making no assertions with regard to how and why these daggers were awarded, and why Gruner got one. I don't believe we can ever know that. I am merely saying that Gruner was a Brigadefuhrer. That is all.

Mike Morris DID have some of the ledgers that Herr Eickhorn kept, but they were from the period that ended in 1934 if memory serves me, and they were his hand-kept records of foreign orders. I DO wish that we had their Third Reich records! What a treasure trove that would be!

Here's the link with the listing where the name was found:
http://www.alexdekker.nl/NSKK-...NSKK-Kopstukken.html

A member of the SA with a car or motorcycle could automatically be a member of the NSKK and a number of SA, specifically Motor SA men and officers transferred to the NSKK when that organization became independent. The relationship was documented in an SA-VB and I'll post the reference as soon as I find it again.
Erich

That's the correct name but I thought he had records past that date. I also remember he had some sketches of potential Eickhorn prototype daggers as well. If someone has as address I will attempt to contact him and ask about the dispostion of these records. I also think his asking price for these records was $10,000 which is way out of most of our leagues. I also believe that Tom Johnson is in possession of some of the Eickhorn factory records as well.
Jim

Having made multiple trips to Solingen for his German Blade Makers book, to gather information on the Eickhorn firm. In correspondence with me the late Anthony Carter expressed his frustration into trying to gather certain types of information.

A truly excellent researcher, as near as could be determined some records were irretrievably lost in the war. FP

Typo correction: Make that "In his correspondence with me ...... " FP

Mike told me that he sold the Eickhorn documents to a fellow in Minnesota. They are comprehensive, but the earlier records as Craig indicated.

Hi

quote:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am not sure that Gruner is of "General (officer level)" rank. Do we have the evidence for this?

Here is a wiew of "Deutsche Kraftfahrt" Dezember 1941

Cheers

"Gefordert: Zu NSKK Brigadefuhrern die Oberfuhrer Ulwin Albrecht, Richard Gruner, Franz Wener."

This translates: Promoted: To NSKK Brigadefuhrers, the Oberfuhrers Ulwin Albrecht, Richard Gruner, Franz Wener."

So in 1941, Richard Gruner was promoted from NSKK Oberfuhrer to Brigadefuhrer. There is no telling when he received his damascus dagger.

This scan shows that Gruner was indeed promoted to Brigadefuhrer as Erich Benndorff originally asserted. Brigadefuhrer is a General rank.

Hi
he can't say "hello" and "thanks", the Gottlieb? For collecting well german, one needs access to learn german

quote:

"Gefordert: Zu NSKK Brigadefuhrern die Oberfuhrer Ulwin Albrecht, Richard Gruner, Franz Wener."

The names are Alwin Albrecht, Richard Gr�ner, Franz Meyer!
Cheers

Got that in one.
Seiler

There appear to be accusations or insults creeping into this discussion. I would to all concerned to be polite and understanding.

Thanks

Guymauve--thanks for posting the scan of the promotion listings. That certainly nails down the rank!
Erich

Ja, danke Guymauve. Ich weiss nicht woher kommen Sie, aber Ich bin frulich das Sie haben die Geforderung Dokument gezeigt. Und, Es tut mir leid das ich habe die Namen von unsere NSKK Mannen untrichtig geschreiben; meine Augen sind schlekt, und mein Deutch ist nicht perfekt.

Hello
I am french and my english is also bad
I will look at if I find another thing on Gr�ner.
Greetings

Sorry - I don't speak French (but I love french food). Thanks for doing the research!