Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#40908 01/23/2010 09:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
Hi friends,

I'm posting this piece for a friend from another forum. There was some discussion on it, and the jury is still out. Hoping some members who have a solid fundamental understanding of the leader pieces can provide some insight into the authenticity of this piece. The collector who had posted these pics elsewhere tells me it came as a lot with a few other pieces, all of which were good, and it came from Europe where the dagger still resides today.

Without further ado, here are his pictures.

He appreciates all the help and information which you guys can provide. Leaders pieces are not my bag, and I have always kept my distance from these pieces.

Thank you again,
Tom

HJ-Leader-1.jpg (48.39 KB, 474 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40909 01/23/2010 09:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
2

HJ-leader-2.jpg (61.06 KB, 472 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40910 01/23/2010 09:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
3

HJ-leader-3.jpg (99.16 KB, 466 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40911 01/23/2010 09:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
4

HJ-Leader-4.jpg (103.19 KB, 464 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40912 01/23/2010 09:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
5

HJ-leader-5.jpg (104.22 KB, 461 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40913 01/23/2010 09:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
6

HJ-leader-6.jpg (38.69 KB, 458 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40914 01/23/2010 09:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
7

HJ-leader-7.jpg (57.47 KB, 455 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40915 01/23/2010 09:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
8

HJ-leader-9.jpg (99.44 KB, 449 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40916 01/23/2010 09:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
9

HJ-leader-12.jpg (87.88 KB, 442 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40917 01/23/2010 09:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
He would also like to know about the authenticity of the hanger rig.

Tom

HJ-hangers-1.jpg (50.84 KB, 437 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40918 01/23/2010 09:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
Next

HJ-hangers-4.jpg (75.34 KB, 421 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40919 01/23/2010 09:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
10

HJ-hangers-5.jpg (106.16 KB, 421 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40920 01/23/2010 09:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
Last image.

HJ-hangers-9.jpg (99.31 KB, 417 downloads)

_______________________

German Sabers
#40921 01/23/2010 01:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
Z
Offline
Z
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
Wow!! now that is what I call a dagger.What is inscribed on the scabbard fittings?. Is it H S bahn 399 ? You really do not have any doubts about this dagger. Do you ? How is patination like that going too be faked? I wish every dagger I bought looked like this.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
#40922 01/23/2010 02:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 47
Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 47
Indeed, it is "bann 399" plus what I assume the initials of the owner. personnaly i don't have bath doubts about the dagger becaue for one time also the story is at least a bit reliable. All other pieces in this small souvenir grouping are good. It comes from a Belgian POW who worked after the liberation for the American GI's as a translator. The man was not the type that visted gun shows or fairs after his period of duty, a thing that sometimes can bring fakes in veteran collections.



Regards, Wim

#40923 01/23/2010 02:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
Z
Offline
Z
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
I would like too know where this dagger is being reviewed just too know what questions are raised about this dagger.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
#40924 01/23/2010 05:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 47
Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 47
Hi,

I first posted the dagger in our own forum (WWMF), reactions were let's say careful optimistic. To speak the truth: many of us don't know much about such a rare bird. I learnt a bit more in the last couple of days but before? I would never thought to have one in my hands directly from a veteran. And then you don't study them very well. I also expected more response here, because this is a higly specialized dagger forum. But maybe I'm just a bit too impatient.
The entire dagger has a very light weight feeling which sems to be correct because most parts are made from aluminium, no?

The bann designation in known. We do have some HJ specialists.

Regards, Wim

#40925 01/23/2010 06:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,475
T
Offline
T
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,475
Looks like an authentic poopep out Eik to me.

#40926 01/23/2010 08:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
All features so typical for EICKHORN are here. Obviously one of those early lightweight scabbard daggers (later EICKHORNs also did come with the HÖRSTER feature scabbard). also all typical features of a LÜNESCHLOSS marked hanger.
Not the least red flag (although I do not like engravings BUT in this case even the engraving looks totally ok and period) beside that it is not in my collection Wink .
Regards


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#40927 01/23/2010 09:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
Thank you for the opinions fellas. I'm sure Theo is releived with the good news. Leader daggers are spookey and alot of folks just won't touch them.


_______________________

German Sabers
#40928 01/23/2010 10:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 43
M
Offline
M
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 43
I know nothing about these but it looks like a nice thing.

#40929 01/24/2010 12:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 265
I
Offline
I
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 265
Sure looks old!!

#40930 01/24/2010 12:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 1
The first photo with the hangers really tells a story!! I have never seen one in that type of condition. I have always seen them looking newer and shiny. IMO to me this dagger is more desirable. I like these old conditioned ones. Nice catch Best Larry


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
#40931 01/24/2010 01:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
At least I do have another one (dagger by EICKHORN is without corrosions; hangers are also LÜNESCHLOSS marked) with some Wink accoutrements in my personal collection Big Grin.
Regards,

1_r.jpg (32.63 KB, 274 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#40932 01/24/2010 01:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 47
Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 47
Beautiful piece, Wotan.

About Siegfried's remark: Is it possible that all the daggers which are shown by major dealers are cleaned? On the dagger I have all silverd fittings have that delicate black patina.

Regards, Wim

#40933 01/24/2010 02:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
P
Offline
P
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 934
I imagine the document to be far rarer than the dagger!!
P


FUR EHR' UND PFLICHT BIS HERZ UND KLINGE BRICHT
#40934 01/24/2010 03:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,788
Likes: 14
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,788
Likes: 14
Wotan:

WOW!

John


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
#40935 01/24/2010 06:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
What was noted elsewhere about the dagger Theo (Wim) posted is you'll notice the personalization. It appears that it has been plated inside the letters/#'s. I can't recall seeing an example with plating inside the charachters on a personalization.

Wim- Did the member contact you? I gave him your addy provided in your GDC profile.

Tom


_______________________

German Sabers
#40936 01/24/2010 07:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
Fellow collectors, thank you for your comments. I appreciate them.
@ Swordfish, sorry, I did not want to highjack this thread but could not resist to show that I know what I am speeking about Wink.
The engraving, as far as I can see from the pics, is NOT plateted. It has typical oxidation marks (see pic) which occur when a plating is cut through due to engravind and does oxidate at several edges.
But as stated, I do like this certain engraving very much and also due to these certain oxidations (eaqual to all overall oxidations) it is an old engraving and therefore most likely (for me by sure) done during the period.
Regards,

HJ-leader-5_marked.JPG (90.8 KB, 227 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#40937 01/24/2010 08:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291
Likes: 2
Just a simple questions:

1. wotan - how throat in Your dagger is attached to upper fitting ? As far as I know Eick used one screw on the back of the upper fitting...

2. Can You guys post here etching of Eick leader HJ..

#40938 01/24/2010 08:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
@ Gottlieb.
"Middle early" (I assume those squirrel maker marked EICKHORNs are earlier) EICKHORNs don´t have any screw, they do have the "built in" or integrated scabbard mouth (as I think it is shown here and my dagger also has this configuration). Only later ones do have the HÖRSTER configuration with one screw on the reverse.
Keep in mind that also fakes do have this HÖRSTER configuration but up to now I never have seen or heard about a faked integrated scabbard mouth.
The etching is shown here in pics 6 and 7.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#40939 01/24/2010 08:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291
Likes: 2
Offline
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291
Likes: 2
That is what I wanted to know. I have HJ leader with similar markings shown here above but with screw on the back of upper fitting. I thought all Eicks have'em...

Thanks a lot wotan

#40940 01/25/2010 03:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,436
B
Offline
B
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,436
I have had a couple of HJ leaders off of my ads. Have not had one in quite a few years. But anyways, i never wanted to keep one, i know there are rare, but i really do not like the looks of that dagger.JMO.
thanks,
Bob


robert grant
#40941 01/25/2010 03:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3
R
Offline
R
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3
Nice dagger


collecting any Kingdom of Serbia and Kingdom of Yugoslavia millitary things
#40942 01/26/2010 01:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,610
S
Offline
S
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,610
Great Leader grouping there wotan! -Congrats!
Is that the original owner at his wedding?

-serge

#40943 01/26/2010 01:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
Wotan,
I believe you.

It's not my piece, nor did I take the photos..as such, i've never held the dagger. The engraving was discussed elsewhere because it does almost look like there was some sort of plating inside the characters..but I guess it's just simply from how the base metal scarred during the engraving process.

Tom


_______________________

German Sabers
#40944 01/26/2010 09:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
Offline
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,864
Likes: 13
@Swordfish: just for completition, when you look at the two 9 s about half of the plating in the circles is missed. due to my experiences this only happens when a plating is cut through by engraving, therefore the ground material or the connecting material can corrode and the plating partially corrodes away. This does not happen this certain way if an engraving is plated afterwards.
I am glad you see it this way too as this is nothing detracting from the dagger or the engraving.

@Serge: The photograph of the original wearer is too small (I have one, also a wedding photograph) so I did change it for the composition of this photograph.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#40945 01/27/2010 01:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,610
S
Offline
S
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,610
Wotan,
That's great having a photo of the original owner. Something we never get here in the states from our Vets.
One would be lucky if he's alive and can remember the circumstances of the daggers procurement.

Regards,
-serge-

#40946 01/27/2010 06:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
OP Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
Wotan,
Makes sense to me.


_______________________

German Sabers
#40947 01/27/2010 06:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 47
Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 47
@ swordfish: Thank you very much for placing the pictures here.

@ Wotan: Thank you for the technical explanation of the engraving.

Regards, Wim Smile


Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,216,031 SS Bayonets
1,714,883 Teno Insignia Set
1,079,354 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
Luftwaffe Machete
by BretVanSant - 05/12/2022 10:00 PM
Hitler Youth Knife
by Keyse Carter - 05/12/2022 01:09 AM
SS Armband - R u S Hauptamt
by Serge Sorbi - 05/10/2022 03:28 PM
New member
by Serge Sorbi - 05/10/2022 03:11 PM
RLB Leader questions
by BretVanSant - 05/10/2022 04:47 AM
Latest New Posts
Trying to set the record straight Tags
by Vern - 05/16/2022 06:48 PM
Luftwaffe Machete
by BretVanSant - 05/16/2022 02:34 PM
SS Number
by Dave - 05/15/2022 06:23 PM
Period Photo of WW1 Flyers ring!
by benten - 05/14/2022 08:05 PM
Update Log
by Vern - 05/14/2022 06:49 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics31,152
Posts322,796
Members7,158
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
11 members (Vern, JohnZ, Miroslav, JR, DAMAST, Dave, atis, DARREN W, wf789, born2lift, SpitfireVb), 50 guests, and 50 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5