UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum The 'P' word !

and what is that?? Provenance!

Something not talked about so much any more..

The meaning of the word:

the place of origin or earliest known history of something:
"an orange rug of Iranian provenance"

the beginning of something's existence; something's origin:
"they try to understand the whole universe, its provenance and fate"

a record of ownership of a work of art or an antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality:
"the manuscript has a distinguished provenance.


- *For us a difficult thing to toss around sometimes.. Daggers, certain medals/ Badges,,,jackets.. Some of these items you can find with the soldiers name in them,,attached to them etc. You can then begin your search to relate everything together..

- For a HR is easy. Since its named IF your ring appears on the magic SS list thats very good.. OR getting it in a 'lot' of other named personal items , documents etc.

- So,, what would be the best provenance for a PP ring you can have? I'd say getting directly from the Vet himself and/or his family. With,,a photo in wear shot! - [Yeah that would do it for me]..
- What else? - The ring appearing in a period catalog,,, and/or a 'In wear' photo..

Since some PP rings don't have 'in wear' photos,,period adverts what can we do?? Just because it doesn't have anything listed above make it a fake?. Sometimes you have to do your own research. Also comparing with similar authentic rings. Rings with the same bands and just different cartouche. Those are rings from a series etc.

- * What is not a provenance and sometimes used a lot.. 'Ground dug'... It is not a provenance. Doesn't matter if your best friend just dug it,,or even yourself! In the mid 90s in Ukraine I've been to digs where I saw the ring come from the ground. Later to wash it off with the other pieces later.. Yes for those its good,,,but only for myself. For me to say that to others would make me a hypocrite.. So while many say it, know a 'honest' digger, found ourselves, we really can't use it sad to say.... * We know this because this forum has a few topics showing fantasy rings being dug up on U Tube etc.
- Getting a ring in a big lot with all the other items being authentic isn't good either.. Its been done a long time and good for the seller to add a couple hundred dollars more to the price...

- Years ago a 'certification' a collector would use as 'proof' / Provenance.. For the HR it was D. Boyle. You sent him your ring and $200 or $300 dollars and you got back a kind of provenance,,his certification.. Well now we know sadly he has been wrong for all these years.. There are HRs with certs that are not authentic period..

Well sorry this is a long wordy topic but its time to get it out there.. Anyone please feel free to add your opinions, findings etc. Thanks , G.

Good set of reminders, Gaspare. Thank you. The ‘ground dug’ ‘proof of authenticity’ seems to have grown in recent years and probably fools a lot of folks. it might have been under the ground but you don’t know when it got there, how it got there or, more important, who put it there. There are least a couple of videos on YouTube showing some scumbag scheister unearthing a ring that is a complete fantasy. It didn’t even exist during the war.

I remember when a COA was good, not any longer. You see these guaranteed money back for life ,thats no assurance that's it's real, dealers still sell items even tho they are fake with this guarantee. So what I do is research as much as possible, period photos is one source, good reference books is another .Anyway this just my thought.

and a good thought too LuftBud!! 'guarantee money back for life' - Whos life!!?? his or ours!!

There was that one German dealer a few years back that was so popular guys would be waiting up all night for his latest offerings on line! All with a lifetime guarantee or course.. Great,,except after a few years of raking in the money he suddenly decides to retire!
Then a few years later all the EK1s and IIs and WBs etc started coming up as 'Floch' fakes and some bad cloth etc!!.this guy was no where to be found!!