UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum 2nd Model Luftwaffe by Tiger

I just got this Luftwaffe dagger as a gift from my next door neighbor, whose uncle was stationed in Europe during and after the war, and brought it back with a few other trophies. I'm still young and just getting started collecting militaria, so I'm pretty excited about this. So not only is this the first really nice item in my collection, It's also straight out of the woodwork. I really like the dark orange color of the grip, although it does wiggle a bit side to side. I've done some research, but I'm still learning and I was wondering if some of you could offer your thoughts about this dagger. Is Tiger a desirable maker to have? I've also been wondering about the hangers. All the fittings appear to be period, but I'm not sure about the grey leather tops on the hangers. I think they may be a wartime repair? I can take or add more pictures if that would help. I don't intend to sell this piece, but I am curious about how much it would be worth. Any insights would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!

We'll see if this works. It should link you to a similar picture of a hanger. Scroll down to post #351600
https://forum.germandaggers.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=351759&page=4

You might want to post closeups of your hanger.

--dj--Joe

Hello Coyote_Kyle, first let me welcome you in theforum and to your first posting!

In your posting you do show us a very nice 2nd luftwaffe dagger by TIGER which for sure is one of the more scarce producers. Beside a few stains on the blade (I personally would try to use "Renaissance Wax" on it, perhaps it looks even a little better afterwards, on the other side you can do no harm) the dagger looks overall in very good and nice condition. The undamaged, fine grip wire and the appealing color of the grip are for sure a plus. Even more plus with it´s hangers and the proper, short portepee. Imho the hangers have been produced this way. You can find them with metal tops riveted and leather tops, either sewn (like in the thread shown by derjager) or also riveted.
I add some pics of how the portepee could be properly attached, take care that the slide (the small round part -now- next to the cord loop near the grip) comes next to the stem of the acorn.

Concerning the value: Value lies always in the eyes of the owner or the person who wants to buy. Do a quick search at big dealers sites (see the changing banners below our title "GermanDaggers.com", take about 30% away from their prices and you have an idea about the worth of your edged weapons.

Congratulations to your start into the world of collecting edged weapons, regards,

Coyote_Kyle welcome to German Daggers. You have a very nice 2ND Model Luft. A good start to a collection. Check out Whittman Militaria.com for prices. For insurance purpose $800-$1000. would be my guess.

Check out Wittmann Antique Militaria. I put down His name wrong above, it's not Whittman Militaria.com Sorry Mr. Wittman if you are on GDC.

Here is a link to the Luftwaffe Daggers:

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/LD2.htm

And, Welcome to GDC

Dave

Thanks for the replies! Here are some closeups on the hangers. I still have yet to see another example of the rivetted leather tops.

A long time ago. Before I owned a computer. or a digital camera. I had a Heer set of hangers with the riveted leather tops. It was constructed the same as your example. (Same woven style reverse). At the time I thought it was a later war period piece. Long gone now. I will dig through my old pictures but chances are the image will be too small to see details.

--dj--Joe

These hangers with the "woven style reverse" (copyright derjager ) are VERY rare. For a long time these were supposed t be postwar. But opinions (also mine!) have changed and now most collectors think/know that these are legit contemporary produced hangers. I personally have seen about 4-5 armies and 1 or 2 luft and do have now none in my collection. So you see these are not easy to find but imho 100% period.
Regards,

I checked my pictures, it is indeed too small to see details.
Leave it to me to sell the rare set of hangers.

--dj--Joe

Interesting, thanks for the help! Now that I know about the hangers, the whole piece will be even nicer to have in my collection.
The other day, I stumbled on a set of heer hangers with the same construction as mine on a dealer's webside, for 145 USD. feel free to pick it up if you want one in your collection again.
https://svmilitaria.com/GermanWWIIDaggerparts.htm

And luft hangers of this certain type are even much more rarer than the army type!
Regards,

Kyle, thanks for the link.

--dj--Joe

I have been collecting army dagger hangers for years and own over 30 different types, including quite a lot deluxe ones with top metal protection, fastened with flat rivets (but only on metal reinforments)
I have (so far) in all these years of collection only encountered hangers with top leather reinforcement that were sewed.
Also these large flat rivets do not match any period ones i have handled over the years, so regarding these rivets i have my doubts.
I did saw them being used to attach straps on scabbards , these were made around the 70s.
What i also noticed is the fact that these leather parts using these rivets always look like new.

Let say i'm not a big fan of these ones.

Ger

Hello Ger, your observations and statements, due to your vast and excellent experience, are quite valuable! So let us all "disassamble" these interesting hangers hopefully we can shed some light in this hangers case:

First it is said that these certain hangers with the TIGER 2nd luft dagger are veteran aquired bringbacks. Naturally buy the item not the story BUT as there is a direct, personal link it sounds VERY confidential and serious.

When looking at these hangers the leather material immedially looks "new" which is really spurious. 70+ years old leather -normally- has another look I have to admit that this was also my little personal reservation aginst these hangers. I would like to hold such hangers in hands and especially do the smell test and examine the habit of the material which could help and perhaps solve the riddle immediately.
In this state it is also interesting to see the (army) hangers in the link. At least one of the rivets, which obviously consits of aluminum has an absolutely typical trace of age. Up to my knowledge you today could not obtain such certain aluminum rivets, only steel rivets.

The certain matrerial of these hangers (without velvet; with this certain structured material) was looked at as postwar for many years and by many collectors. Nowadays it is commonly looked at as correct, period replacement material. Hangers with such material were said found on edged weapons directly from the former (period) wearer and other doubtless sources.

When looking at these hangers all fittings are imho doubtless period manufactured, the hangers have the certain period look and the look of age.

This all said we still hang on the leather enhancement. Perhaps Coyote_Kyle could try the smell test: Do the leather parts smell like leather? Perhaps they have a more or less intensive but typical leather smell???

And @ Ger, what do you personally think of this replacement material of the straps???

Regards,

This is the aluminum rivet about which I have written. Such traces of age can only occur on aluminum. Traces of rust have a totally different look.
These army hangers are a total mixture of fittings so perhaps proper for a late in the war produced hanger. But also -perhaps- a sign for faked ones???
Regards,

BTW on the reverse you can see he typical rust traces of age:

Regarding the leather, It does not have any sort of smell that I can detect. On the edges it appears somewhat discolored, and while the grey finish looks new, under a loupe it's apparent that it is full of micro-cracks.
However, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 60 year old leather and 80 year old leather, but it wasn't made yesterday.

The rivets are not corroded, but the top rivets are nonmagnetic, while the rivets near the buckles are magnetic.

Honestly, if the hangers are postwar, they'd have to be fairly early, as the vet who took it home was only in Europe for a few years after the war ended. So if anything's fake, it was the GI himself that got scammed.

This corresponds with my observation in regard of the rivet materials.

When leather has no detectable smell it is a good sign as fresh or not too old leather has the typical leather smell.

Regards,

What wonders me is the worn straps and the like new leather caps, all my hangers with worn straps, or straps with wear have worn leather caps.
If leather has a certain age it lost smell, but 10 years will do that trick.
I have seen a lot of items in the last 10 years that were made of original and new materials.
The material on the back i have np with, i have seen very worn hangers having this Ersatz material.
Aluminium Rivets are easy to obtain at Aliexpress, in all different kinds, flat, rounded, so np there.
Another observation on period hangers is that the leather on all i saw were not as nicely cut as these one, stichting and shape were not perfect, on none of the ones i have or saw.
I have owned 3 luft typ 2 daggers along the years that came with hangers having leather on top, all had different type of leather, all stiched.
Cracks in leather are very easy to make, the faster you dry the paint thats on the leather, the easier you can create a crackle finish.

Im not convinced all parts of these hangers are period made.

Regards,
Ger

Hello Ger, thank you for your reply and your experienced thoughs. I also have noted immediately the dfference in condition between the brocade and the leather but thinking it over these ARE different materials which might have different aging and therefore a different look. The aluminum wire over the threads is extremely delicate and if not proper stored tends to go to time, not so leather.
I am with you that the well known leather parts with stitching have a serious different configuration than these shown here.

Yes, after years leather looses the distinct smell. My thoughts have been IF the smell would have been present, we for sure would have NEW leather.

This kind of rivets are totally different and you could not use these for such hangers. Up to now I have to find the certain, right rivets in aluminum.

So for today imho we cannot solve the riddle. Personally I tend to period production. Perhaps future will show us the right way for judging them.

Regards,

Thank you for your thoughts on the hangers. I guess I'm still on the fence about them. Ger, if you suspect them to be at least partly postwar construction, when do you think they were made?

I have quite recently found more info on the vet that acquired it. He was a 2nd Lieutenant in Infantry Field Artillery, and he was deployed in Normandy, 1944, only a few weeks after D-Day. After the War ended, he stayed in West Germany to assist in the reconstruction. I believe he was stationed there until 1949, when he returned to the states. I was told that he brought the dagger back with him from Europe. (I just found some photos of him, I might post them here later if y'all would like)

That said, I am aware that the Germans made some repro gear (or embellished wartime gear) to sell to GI's heading home. Do you think this may be what happened?

I think it is impossible to detect if leather was made (used) 40-45 or 45-49. The hanger material is a known replacement material, earlier hangers have a velvet (felt) back. As said this replacement material has been looked on for a lot of time and by a lot of collectors as postwar. When findings from veterans and former wearer were reported the judgement changed.
The mixture of replacement material and obviously different produced fittings (especially on the army hanger from the offer; your Luft seems to be made with much more consistent fittings) let us think either of very late production or even postwar. Or both.
I do not want to forget that your dagger with portepee and hangers look very homogene and due to lack of war there were produced daggers for occupation forces but up to now I have not heard of hangers for them.
So I personally still believe, without real proof, that your rig is period (pre may 45) produced.
Regards,

You have put the finger on the sore spot, very late produced parts are not consistent in material, so we either can be right or wrong in deteming this hanger.
This one can easily be put together for souvenir purposes, but there is also the chance that maybe the Vet bought it years later because the dagger had none, so in that case it might be a postwar one.

I have seen a lot of late produced army and luftwaffe daggers that are more then questionable, so i decided to collect the early ones, and in a lot of cases the "textbook" ones.
Collection is also about gutfeeling, there are one lookers, and ones that makes you frown, i walk away from the last ones.
Just to be sure....

Ger

Hello Ger, you are right. Those late ones are not easily (if at all) to judge. As collector, especially if you have to look at value, it is much better to stay on the more secure side with early daggers. Even more as the early ones have solid and outstanding quality. On the other side it is very interesting for the advanced and experienced collector (like you are!) to risk a travel into insecure but even more interesting fields of late producion daggers. We know eg original ZEITLER and postwar the spare part production by Atwood. It is not easy to judge but even in this case a very homogeneous and well fitted dagger against wiggling, bad finished and spurious parts and so on might gain a correct judgement. But, in your proper thoughts, there might remain doubts.
Regards,

Some different riveted examples in this older thread. Scroll down to #172725

https://forum.germandaggers.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172732&page=1#

allow me to add my "two cents" I have collected in earnest since 1982 though NOT as early as some I have seen and handled much A few short years ago I acquired a double engraved generic Heer dagger with a Luftwaffe and Heer etch unheard of I knew the naysayers would have a field day with it I paid $100 at a local market I took it to the Max show I think 2018 Tom Wittmann examined and video taped it for his MAX journal he called it 100 % real and unheard of I immediately took it to Tom Johnson and he pronounced it both period and authentic he said you can tell everyone that both Toms loved it... one of a kind never before seen I have a mint un issued pair of heer dagger straps with the same leather, sans rivets looks new no smell accepted variation straps are stiff no wear fittings have ALL silvering I have owned Luftwaffe hangers identical to these shown, same fabric straps and leather sans the rivet so the fabric is correct and period that leaves the rivets in question no need to reinforce them pst war as they appear to be sound post war produced????........WHY...??? Luftwaffe hangers are available by the thousands and until recently did NOT command high prices even today to justify reproducing ......................I like the leather I see age freshly cut leather is tell tale IMO opinion these hangers are correct and period and fantastic I would purchase with total confidence cheers and best, Ryan

By any chance could you post pictures of this dagger? would like to see this rare edged weapon.
Thanks Bud

Hello the dagger was sold soon after Tom Wittmann authenticated it do a search of Toms WAM videos on youtube and you can view it either 2017 or 2018 cheers

Lakesidetrader just listed an identical set of Luft hangers with metal instead of leather tabs check them out cheers Ryan

Thanks, I'll check it ,should be on you tube , thanks again.

No worries cheers, R

since the hangers started a spirited "debate" concerning period authenticity has anyone bothered to check out the rare Luftwaffe hangers listed upon Lakesidetraders site? I assume the only question now concerns the leather top tabs....?? these hangers are period correct cheers and best, Ryan