UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Hunting, Forestry, and Shooting Forum C. W. ENGELS Jagdmesser mit Hirschhorngriff

C. W. ENGELS, ENGELSWERK SOLINGEN-FOCHE, is listed on pages 182-183 of "German Knife and Sword Makers, 1850-1945" by J. Anthony Carter.

They note that stag-horn hilted combat knives, sold privately, were made during the First World War. These Jagdmesser knives are German hunting collectables and World War 1 collectables.

The C. W. Engelswerk preisliste (price list) Nr. 42 has "Gegrundet 1884" (Established 1884) on the cover.

C. W. Engels was represented in New York by F. W. Engels & Co. from 1909 to 1943.

I just won this Jagdmesser on a popular auction site for under $300.00 USD. The sheath has a brown snap button "stud" with the old designed 6-sided "post" for the "stud".

The old snap button "stud" with the "Snowflake" design is also found with the old 6-sided "post" on WW1 period knives such as the Anton Wingen Jr. "Deutscher Brummer" "42er" sheath I have.

The original owner's surname "FRECKMANN" is etched on the blade. A search on Ancestry.com found German WW1 casualties listed with the German surname FRECKMANN.

These knives are also found with a roe deer foot handle. I found one for auction in Germany starting at 300.00 Euros or about $324.00 USD. This knife has an interesting monogram etched on the blade.

The problem is they only ship in Germany. The sheath on the Roe deer foot knife does not look right to me and the securing strap looks newer than the sheath.

I also found another example with a different looking handle and ferrule, with the maker's mark on the other side of the blade.

And I found an image of the Nr. 42 price list catalog cover.

Thanks for showing, C.

We appreciate your efforts. The makers mark above is more elaborate and larger than most.

Dave

The large monogram, V over E or E over V, on the knife with the roe deer foot handle is probably the initials of the original owner.

I also found an early pair of scissors by C. W. Engels on a popular auction site, maker marked ENGELSWERK over C. W. ENGELS over SOLINGEN-FOCHE. The other side had the "angel holding an S" trademark and the blade had the original owner's 1st initial, and surname done in the same style as "FRECKMANN" on my knife.

The seller of the knife with the roe deer foot handle thinks the large monogram is C A (Carl August) or V E (Victor Emmanuel).

Victor Emmanuel III was the King of Italy.

Could the monogram be a cypher for an Imperial German Army Regiment?

beautiful examples... I've had these years ago in my 'fighting knife' collection.. Real sorry I sold all of them but you can only have so much...... Many of the Deer foot examples have a silver plate at bottom of hoof that is engraved with initials etc.

Sometimes here you get real lucky at the bigger shows [ SOS , MAX ] and see one for $100 to $300. and they are usually always in good condition..

Thanks for posting [especially with reference book],,a treat to see....,G.

Found another ENGELSWERK Jagdmesser with a single groove and fine lines on the ferrule.

Discription: Low Estimate $40. High Estimate $80. WWI era Engelswerk Solingen stag handled fighting knife. Measures just over 10.5 inches in length with a 5.75-inch blade. In good condition but is in need of cleaning and rust removal.

This rusty ENGELSWERK Jagdmesser without sheath sold for $80.00 on an unknown date. It looks like the butt cap is missing on the handle.

The C. W. Engels Jagdmesser arrived today from Nevada and the box was crushed on the top a little, but the knife was wrapped in bubble wrap and looks great.

I took some pictures of the knife with my Anton Wingen Jr. "Deutscher Brummer" "42er" for a size comparison.

The C. W. Engels knife has a beautiful fat stag handle and a very nice wicked looking blade. I also took pictures of the snap button "stud" and "post" on both sheaths.

Note that the snap button "stud" with the "snowflake" design on the Anton Wingen knife has the same 6-sided "post" design as found on the C. W. Engels knife with the brown snap button "stud".

Thank you for sharing the above quite different information on C.W. Engels - Engelswerk .
This Solingen cutler ('Stahlwarenfabrik - steelware factory) also acted as leading mail order company ('Versandgeschaeft') both for all kind of knives and a lot of other stuff.
For promotional purpose the company published nicely designed postcards ...



chevalier2022

Chevalier,

thank you for posting the Engelswerk postcard. I noticed many different Engelswerk postcard types posted on the German eBay site. I will buy one to display with the Engelswerk Jagdmesser one day.

I have two original "Deutscher Brummer" "42er" post cards to display with the Anton Wingen Jr. Jagdmesser. One post card is a drawing of the 42 cm gun being fired by German soldiers and the other is an actual picture of the 42 cm gun on a railroad car as delivered from the Krupp company.

The actual winning bid # 32, for the Engelswerk Jagdmesser, was $257.99 and $12.00 S&H, for a total of $269.99 and I was willing to pay much more because of the nice condition of the knife and sheath.

I think that posting the price paid or a "ballpark" price is important information for collectors and members of German Daggers.com

Wetzel,

I am pleased that my post called your attention to C.W. Engels' postcards.
There are being offered various options, illustrating different steps of this cutler and mail order company's development.
The impresive facilities are no longer existing.

chevalier2022

I won an auction on the popular auction site and the knife arrived today. Winning bid # 15 was $54.00 + $5.50 S + H for a total of $59.50 and the knife came from Ohio.

This is an ENGELSWERK, Hirschhorngriff, Bayrisches Trachtenmesser (Bavarian traditional knife) and is not the Jagdmesser mit Hirschhorngriff (combat) knife that was advertised during WW1, as noted in Carter's 2015 edition reference book.

This knife has a blade length of 11 cm with a very slim, straight stag handle and flat metal butt cap.

C. Wetzel-20609

Note: the above ENGELSWERK, Hirschhorngriff, Bayrisches Trachtenmesser (Bavarian traditional knife), probably has a replacement stag handle taken from a table knife or steel honing rod.

The stag handle is not the normal size range on this type of knife and there is a 1/2 mm gap between the ferrule and the stag handle.

When I was viewing the knife for sale, the slim handle should have been a red flag, that the handle was not original.

The handle is tight and will serve the purpose for now, but I might look for a stag handle parts knife in the future.

C.Wetzel-20609

I asked my advanced knife collector friend in Germany, "Mr. K." what he thought about the slim handle on the ENGELSWERK Bayrisches Trachtenmesser.

His reply: "It looks original. There are nickers with almost straight handles. T _ _ _ _ _"

I also have a KUNO RITTER Nr. 632 / 10 cm Ro. Nicker with a very slim crown Stag handle that is the same 15-18 mm width (until the crown) as the ENGELSWERK knife handle.

However, the 1/2 mm gap between the ferrule and the stag on the ENGELSWERK knife handle still makes me think it is a replacement, maybe it was replaced a long time ago.

"Mr. K." also thinks I should not replace the handle. I think only a stag handle from an ENGELSWERK Nicker would be a correct replacement.

Hey Wetzel,
For some reason I can't pullup the one picture I would like to see and that is the pummel or the end cap. But from what I see and imo it looks perfectly fine. The fit of the handle to the base looks good. As you know on most post war pieces the handle is overly fat in that area. Others might want to chime in.

Mikee,

here is the seller's picture of the butt cap. The C. W. ENGELS Jagdmesser mit Hirschhorngriff also has a flat metal butt cap.

Also note that flat metal butt caps were used on WW1 period Nickers and post WW2 Anton Wingen Jr. table knives.

I have also found an image of an ENGELSWERK Weidmannsheil Nicker, with Angel with "S", ENGELSWERK over C. W. ENGELS over SOLINGEN-FOCHE maker's mark. This knife was missing the fancy Weidmannsheil butt cap. The seller of this knife thought that the damage to the bottom of the blade was how it was made, at least that was the story he told to sell the knife.

Wetzel,

It looks good to me looks original but I suppose it could've been replaced it sure doesn't look like it though. I have also seen many a kitchen cutlery with that style of handle. Nice find!

LOL no not how it was made lol, a falcon messer it's not lol. That blade is chipped from use, from bone maybe who knows lol. I hope you can find a nice pommel for it.

Mikee,

the ENGELSWERK Weidmannsheil Nicker, Angel with "S", ENGELSWERK over C. W. ENGELS over SOLINGEN-FOCHE maker's mark, is not mine, and I am certain the blade is damaged from abuse, image from worthpoint web site.

Wetzel,

Okay got ya, I need to stop assuming lol