UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum German sawtooth bayonet ???

Hello
2 years ago I got this amazing bayonet. It is made as a standard issue bayonet but it hasn't any acceptance stamps. The sawtooth blade is like KS98 blade. The screws in the handle are lower than those of a 84/98.
What do you feel about this bayonet ?
Thanks
Starbust

possibly this was made for export as it has no spine date or proofs,,,i saw a M-90/02 marked Simson-Suhl on the blade but no other proofs other than a serial number stamped on crossguard and frog stud serial numbered too,but was not matching number,and i believe it too was for export,,would like to know the answers to these two bayonets myself,,btw,,nice bayonet

An interesting S84/98 bayonet. This is not a WWI bayonet or a military issue one. H�rster does not seem to have made these bayonets in WWII but did made some odd transitional commercial S84/98 after the war. They typically have no military inspection markings but some later ones do and are sometimes called "sneaks" by some collectors. Some of these H�rster bayonets utilized existing stocks of larger S98/05 screwbolts in the grip like yours seems to have. The flashguard on yours shows two sets of holes so it is possible these are also left over parts fitted together. The same may be true of the blade as an old saw back blank (perhaps not even made by H�rster originally) that was utilized by H�rster to produce this bayonet in the 1920s or 30s?

An interesting bayonet that may well be an original post-WWI H�rster put-together. The old "parts is parts" commercial philosophy.

Hello
Thanks for the information. This bayonet is really special with his sawback blade. I agree it was made between the 2 wars but at this period only the dress bayonets has a sawback blade. Would it be a dress bayonet ?
Best regards.
Starbust

It could very well be a private purchase (commercial) bayonet that was made for dress wear or export. It is not an item of issue by the military during the Weimar Republic Zeit. H�rster made some odd bayonets during this time period and yours is consistent with what they were making, IMHO.

A very interesting example!!

These E&F Horster S84/98 sawbacks are discussed briefly in Bruce Karem's wonderful book, "The German S84/98 Bayonet Volume 1: 1908-1933." The copy I have was actually his author markup copy, and as such some things might have changed slightly in his released copy. Regardless, on page 61 there is a section entitled "Imperial Era Commerical or Private Purchase S84/98." At the bottom of this page, it states:

"E&F Horster:
Several examples have been reported of S84/98 2nd model configuration with saw-backs. One had no flashguard. To date, none have been verified as issue S84/98. This author assumes most of the reported issue E&F Horster S84/98 have in fact been private purchase examples and not issue bayonets. Until an issue E&F Horster is reported and verified, there will be continued uncertainty on this maker."

Karem clearly believes these examples to be privately purchased or commercial Imperial/WWI era bayonets. Given the total lack of sawbacks on combat bayos (whether issue or private purchase) after WWI, I'm inclined to agree with this assessment. The grip screws, press stud, scabbard, and sawback blade are all from the Imperial era. It is true that Horster made a few transitional models during the early Weimar era, as George mentioned earlier, which used a great deal of imperial era parts. HOWEVER, as Karem states on page 105 "The flashguard on these bayonets follows the design pattern used in the 3rd model [84/98 III or K98] as the flashguard edge ends midway into the tang and does not extend to the outside edge as on standard 2nd pattern models. The example above clearly has the Imperial 2nd pattern flashguard. Furthermore, the Weimar Horster transitionals were either marked E&F HORSTER, SOLINGEN, or the Dagger H/HS marking (found on later transitional examples which were almost exactly like the K98 pattern, with the exception of a slimmer blade). And finally, both the E&F Horster marked transitional and the Dagger H/HS Horster transitionals have their own unique scabbards (the earlier Horster marked variation's scabbard is similar to dress scabbards, having a lip to the top of the throat, and the Dagger HS examples scabbards are essentially 3rd Patterns, with the throat screw on the side).

Taking all this into consideration, I'm inclined to believe this is a WWI era privately purchased 84/98 sawback. But no book, no matter how thoroughly researched, is full proof, and it may very well be a complete parts piece thrown together in post-war WWI.

Horster did produce kS98 sawback bayonets from 1913-15, so perhaps these 84/98 sawbacks used leftover blades from that production, which would explain the blade being similar to a kS98 than an 84/98 sawback (though this is pure theory on my part).

Militarymania, I am not sure what you are referring to when you say M-90/02, but I believe you are talking about the Peruvian M.1909, which was nothing more than a S98 quillback bayonet with a different nomenclature. These are found with serial numbers on the crossguard and frogstud, and the Peruvian shield on the end of the pommel, with no other markings. The gross majority of these exports were produced by Simson & Suhl, but Horster and I believe Luneschloss also sold these to Peru. They are usually found in almost unissued condition.

Hello
Thanks for your help.
Starbust