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#356331 11/04/2022 01:52 PM
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wotan Offline OP
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Hello gentlemen, I am trying to study gov daggers with the mm by PUMA.
Is here any member, collector who does own one and is willing to share pics of it?
I am aware of these specimen shown in the net eg. by dealers. I am looking for privately owned specimen. Thank you in advance, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #356335 11/04/2022 10:58 PM
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I have an unmarked example I got from Tom Johnson. He said it was from the Puma factory. If you want, I can dig it out and take a few shots wink


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wotan #356336 11/05/2022 12:17 AM
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wotan Offline OP
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Hello Vern, would be fine to see photoshoots from your dagger as also unmarked ones are interesting. I try to find out more about gov/diplo daggers beside the well known EICKHORNs and ALCOSOs and thought to start with PUMA.
Thank you in advance, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #356413 11/15/2022 01:29 PM
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Sorry for the delay. Here are photos of the hilt. Let me know if you want shots of anything specific.

IMG_0348.JPG (156.51 KB, 227 downloads)
IMG_0349.JPG (147.39 KB, 229 downloads)

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wotan #356414 11/15/2022 02:59 PM
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Hello Vern, thank you very much for your effort. The pics are appreciated and I think I can see all what is interesting for my analysis.

Up to now I have three marked PUMAs in my files and could find minute regularities but also little differences. Although most daggers (also those from eg. HOERSTER) are obviously from ALCOSO parts, the scabbards seem visibly to differ.
As yours (the scabbard) differs also from some "regularities" of the PUMAs in my files I am not sure if it is indeed a PUMA model. Perhaps those unmarked were done by a further firm.
I would need more specimen to compare but obviously gov/diplos in general and those from PUMA, HOERSTER and unmarked in special are not widely spread and also no field of much interest; or is it the price of them that there are not so many of these elusive daggers encountered in collections? ...

Btw, your dagger has extremely nice patterned grip plates!

Thank you again for your help and the pics,
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #356419 11/15/2022 08:02 PM
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Hello Vern, one fact would be still interesting for me: Do both (upper and lower) scabbard bands run in the same direction or are they switching the direction ?
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #356420 11/15/2022 08:32 PM
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Both run the same direction.


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wotan #356421 11/15/2022 09:37 PM
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Thank you Vern, others than EICKHORNs and ALCOSOs they do come this and that way.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #356430 11/17/2022 02:18 AM
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Posting for Serge M.

1.jpg (175.75 KB, 179 downloads)

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wotan #356431 11/17/2022 02:18 AM
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Posting for Serge M.

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wotan #356433 11/17/2022 06:43 AM
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Thank Billy.
Diplomatic on left, no-logo G.O. on right.

Serge

wotan #356434 11/17/2022 01:09 PM
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Hello Serge and Bikly_G, thank you for your effort and care. I long for the old times of GD.C where points of originallity, regularities and much more could be openly exchanged and discussed. Due to scrupulous fakers this is not possible any more.
I try to find out if there are regularities for non-ALCOSO and non-EICKHORN gov daggers. When you do examine the whole dagger, the crossguard, the scabbard body (stippling), the scabbard screws, the scabbard mouth, the scabbad bands, the ringholders, it is like an own world opens... if you have at least several in your evidences.
PUMA did use ALCOSO parts but also in house available parts, HÖRSTER obviously did totally their own thing and the unmarked ones are mixtures or pure ALCOSOs.
I am aware that the interest on these daggers (due to availability in collections and their prices) and details is limited, but it helps to avoid obvious fakes and messed with daggers.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #356445 11/19/2022 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by wotan
I long for the old times of GD.C where points of originallity, regularities and much more could be openly exchanged and discussed. Due to scrupulous fakers this is not possible any more.

Unfortunately wotan, as we know, that's the way it is these days.
However, that doesn't stop some of us from sharing with serious known collectors, it just can't be out in the open like it was back-in-the-day. Too many fakers out there that will make one with all the details we provide and Wa-La, another one appears and then they test it on the forums and see if it flies. If not, they want to know why, which soon gets 'improved' on the next fake, now upgraded.
As my friend Johnny V. would say; "There's too much money in the hobby".

Best of Hunt,
Serge

Last edited by Serge (aka Wagner); 11/19/2022 03:30 AM.
wotan #356657 12/12/2022 04:54 PM
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Hello gents, I now have been able to examine an original PUMA gov dagger in hands. I know there is not much interest from collectors in these daggers (expensive, anly few variants). To my big surprise, it is obviously that PUMA did produce all these dagger parts in house (or use what hey already had in house) and did not use ALCOSO parts (not additionally purchased ALCOSO parts) although certain parts are very similar to ALCOSO parts. But they differ in details. This you can only judge when you compare 1:1 in reality - and, honestly, who has the chance to do so? All these gov daggers are expensive and PUMAs are even more quite rare. It again did show me how few we do know about about our hobby and especially about the niches in our hobby.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #359525 10/26/2023 05:50 PM
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Hello
Is this trade mark valid for a diplomate dagger
Thank you

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wotan #359526 10/26/2023 06:11 PM
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That trademark was used by the Spanish firm Marto on reproduction daggers. It was never used on an original period dagger.


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wotan #359538 10/28/2023 12:36 AM
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Vern already stated the most important part. I want to add, that a Gov dager is pictured in the contemporary H(OE)LLER catalog but NO Diplomatic dagger. There is a controversion about H(OE)LLER Gov daggers if there are period specimen. If there are, the are rare. I have hot had any in hands but as it is pictured in the catalog there is a serious chance original, period specimen are around.
*F.W.H(OE)LLER Berlin* is the incorrect, postwar mark ad a sure sign for a fake (at least) blade. Period H(OE)LLER blades are marked *F.W.H(OE)LLER SOLINGEN*.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #359548 10/28/2023 11:57 PM
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Several years ago I owned a Holler GO example that I believed was period. They are quite uncommon and I’m sure some period examples have been pushed aside due to the bad info out there about them, made worse by the Holler Berlin fakes. Every GO or Diplo dagger has to be taken on it’s own individual merits or weaknesses.


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wotan #359579 10/31/2023 11:39 AM
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Billy_G., I remember your H(OE)LLER gov very well wink . It looked VERY convincing and had a certain H(OE)LLER treat.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.

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