UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum KM Honor Dagger

Hi Guys,

I just picked this up last weekend at an estate Auction here in Texas. This is what I have been able to determine about it so far.

I can trace the provenence back to 1977 when it was sold at auction by Wallis & Wallis Auctioneers in London. I have the Original Lot Ticket but nothing more. I have begun corespondence with them to see what, if any, information thay have in their archives, Waiting! The diamonds are REAL, Hand Cut, German Style diamonds, The grip is solid Elephant Ivory and the Grip Wire is 18kt Solid Gold. All other hardware and the scabbard are gold plated brass. The Blade is Genuine "Rose Bud" Pattern Damascus and has Billet Clamp Marks and a Slug mark on the tang. ALL parts, including the blade tang, are stamped with the Number 3. The case is marked on the bottom with the Maker's Logo and address. It is made of blue Morroco Leather with a textured velvet lining which fits the Dagger Perfectly. I am also trying to figure out an approximate figure as to a Value for insurance purposes. Any Other information that anyone has out there about this piece is greatly appreciated. Here are the pics! ANY Comments of ANY Kind are Greatly appreciated. RG88

Here are some more pics, I have not included the reverse of the blade because I do not wish to reveal the recipient yet!

Sorry it is a postwar dagger..They have been reproducing this for years. The blade is a etched damascus pattern and is not damascus...There are many other issues also.This is one of the poorer reproductions.. Box also is postwar.They are still reproducing this dagger in Germany also.I'm sure others on the website such as Houston , Vic D. and Ron W. will also confirm this...Regards: James

P.S. I will be posting pictures I took in
Germany of this style blade and scabbard parts etc...

Very sorry to be the one to tell you this

The only original part is the pommel and maybe the grip if ivory (but it is the wrong style for the honor daggers) (as we know there was Eickhorn stock left after the war..). The ones made in Germany now also have real diamonds. James

Hi,
I have to agree with Damast. He is right.
Etched damascus and an inscription which runs out of the line is not what I would expect on such an item.
The crossguard is a repro from an Imperial crossguard we can see since a couple of years having short crossguard arms.
Scabbard is in lack of detail, grip and grip wire is also wrong. Date, on a real piece would match to Albrecht Brandi, but it is not real. Sorry.
Best regards;
Flyingdutchman

Thank you for your opinions, gentlemen! Any Others? RG-88

Not even close to an original one. As several experienced collectors already have mentioned a lot of details I dare to spare to mention these again. But I want to add that also the box is a fake due to what I know from original ones concerning color, gold-printing and general details of manufacturing.
Regards,

The facts:
1.The blade is NOT damascus .
2. the crossguard and blade washer are postwar manufacture.
3. The case is postwar manufacture
4. The grip (who knows without seeing it in person .)
5. Pommel may be original postwar Eickhorn (or maybe Postwar german)
6. as stated before I will post pictures of daggers being made like this including same fake etched blade (pictures taken less than a year ago...
7. You have FLYINGDUTCHMAN one of the leading experts on Navy daggers Just Authored a new book in Germany confirming the facts...
8. NEVER BUY THE STORY buy the dagger who cares where it came from.. They have been making reproductions of these since the 60s
9. scabbard throat is incorrect.
10. if Albrecht Brandi is the name on the dagger the original one in damascus etc... is pictured in reference books and is in a collection here in the states I belive.

As Friday said on dragnet (just the facts)
Sorry you are learning it this way. It is nothing personal at all I'm just telling you what you do have (Please no more private e-mails post it on the web for all to see)

Hi Dutchman, I am assuming you are relating this to when he won the Swords to the KC on that date? Is this correct? RG88

Hello,....I have been waiting many years for a member of this forum (Patrice maybe?) to post pictures of a genuine KM honour dagger for us all to see. But as yet, so far to no avail!...I hope you didn't pay to much for this item in the belief that it was the real deal?...I should though just add that the pommel dose actually look guite good and may be worth on it's own, more than you paid for the whole item....Fingers crossed!!!

They are two much better pieces for sale at german online-shops.

Sellers say`s they are original Marine honour daggers. The market say`s: they don`t sell them...

OK Damast, I was just trying to gently correct your mistaken assumption about the blade by telling you that I knew it to be real Damascus because of the tang slightly de-Laminating and MY having to reinforce it with Brass and recutting the screw threads so it would screw into the pommel again. Here is a photo of the repaired Tang, you can see the Brass repair. I made NO statements as to when, where, or how the blade was made. I can think of no other reason why the blade would de-laminate if it was NOT Damascus, Do You? RG88

Thank you for the photo. The tang is a production made plain steel tang I do not need to see the tang to know it is not damascus. I can tell from the pattern on the blade and the pattern on the blade spine . I

You know it baffles me a bit to see so many people immediately come to the conclusion that "if I haven't seen it before, it didn't exist." I have been collecting for a little while (around 1962) and never have taken that attitude. All I can do is verify what I can about a piece, which I did in the first statement on this thread, and post the photos, which I also did. I have made NO claims for this piece! All I have done is state the facts that I know. Actually anything else is PURE Speculation. I will continue to make NO Claims for this piece, as I have up to now, read the comments that are posted, and ultimately draw my own conclusions. I have ALWAYS made it a policy for myself to buy ANYTHING as if it was a repro. That way I never get hurt in a deal! It is absolutely that way on this one also. I have no "Got to BE REAL" interest in the piece other than it would be nice if it was. But I am not hurting either way. I, personnaly live by the rule "Never Spend Money You Can't Afford to Lose!" and it has stood me well. RG88

Very Well, Damast! Thank you! It would seem that you do not need to see the blade at all to know it is not Damascus! RG88

This is for FlyingDutchman: I am sorry that, in the first photo I posted, the picture was taken at an angle so that the writing does seem to "run off the line". I took it that way hoping to avoid the flare from the reflection of the blade. I think this photo shows better that the lettering does not do that. Regards, RG88

You show an dagger and get answers and opinions.

What do you want more?

They will not change here answers if you show more of the dagger.

Let me say it clear:

This dagger configuration isn`t known from 3rd Reich.
But ist is known! What stay`s left?

Medes

Here is a few pictures of another in etched fake damascus blade less than a year ago..Date on blade 9.5.1944

2

And here is a scary thing for Imperial navy collectors. A knockoff of the Prince Adelbert dagger.. Next to it is a ivory block and a unfinished blade,,

Hello Medes,

Thank you for your response. The question now has NOTHING to do with comments and opinions other than if an incorrect opinion is formed from MY lack of Skill with a Camera, I wish to do what I can to correct it. If someone makes a specific statement such as, "The writing goes over the edge" and I can see that the assumption is caused from ME taking the photo at a bad angle, don't you agree I should make a correction and show why? If someone says, "It is not Damascus!" and I am holding the blade in my hand and can see that it is composed of layers of metal,and I will be the first to admit not being an expert on Damascus Steel, but I have a couple other damascus blades that are very similar. Shouldn't I try to make an honest effort to correct the mistaken impression? Especially if I have contributed to the impression due to having limited photographic skills? What would you do? I am not arguing with anyone as far as the opinions as to whether this dagger is Original 3rd reich or not. I am just trying to make sure enough CORRECT information is there so that an informed Opinion can be formed. Not an opinion based on mistaken observations. I hope you understand. Regards, RG88

quote:

I will be the first to admit not being an expert on Damascus Steel,

This is what I collect and it is very night and day to me.. Sorry you don't want to let go
Regards: James

Damast, Please! I am not being intentionally arbitrary! All I can say is that the blade in my hand appears to be Real Damascus in that it is composed of layers of steel. As much as I may like to concede the point in the interest of peace, I cannot deny what I am looking at! I DID have to make the repair for the reason I stated, I am not the only one who has looked at this blade,"IN the Flesh" and thought it to be real Damascus. I am NOT claiming Originality for the blade based on the fact that it is Damascus! I am only stating the undeniable FACT, based solely on what I am Holding in my Hand. I am sorry if that goes against what you so fervently want to be. But OK, ANY Further discussion of that aspect of this blade will be because YOU refuse to let go. Not me! I just can't deny what I know. Peace RG88

Oh Damast, Those ARE Very interesting, and Scary, photos of things you found! Where and when were the pics taken? I have never even seen one of those crossguards you posted. Ray RG88

I would like to restate that I have been able to follow this piece back to the year 1977! Any type of fake part made after that year is NOT germain to this Particular Dagger. Just to throw it out there and state what I know. what really interested me in this dagger was NOT how perfectly it matched a Textbook Honor dagger but, in fact, how much it varies from one. I am already familiar with all of the known Honor Daggers, by Eickhorn, and the Fakes which have shown up on the market. But, Here is the question: Why would someone make such a good item that varies SO MUCH from What we all know as the Original? The Maker on this one is PAUL WEYERSBERG! ALL the fittings, except for the Scabbard, are made of Gold Plated solid Brass! The grip is Solid Ivory but the spiral is not cut wide for the Oak Leaf Wrap like an Eickhorn, The Grip wire is Solid 18kt Gold. It seems apparent now that no one has seen this type of configuration before. So what are speculations as to what it is all about? Please I am not looking for an argument, just some open minds and opinions. RG88

Dear Railgun88,
please, don't get me wrong. It is not my intention to say anything bad about your dagger. If it is the Real McCoy for you, thats fine with me.
Unfortunately there are a few facts which are not matching to the piece you have posted.

Jan Piet Puype (quoting Dr.Klietmann) stated in his article in 1974 about these extremely rare daggers that just six were produced and awarded during the Raeder period. Puype further quoted Mr.Frederick J.Stephens who said that in July 1966 a 7th dagger was sold by Wallis&Wallis in London. It was the Auction No.133 and lot No.798. This was the seventh honour dagger given from D�nitz to Fregattenkapit�n Brandi. You can find this dagger in the 3rd issue from Oct./Nov. 1970 in Militaria Collector. Puype further stated in 1974 that the main difference between the D�nitz dagger and the six Raeder daggers are just in the inscription. Neither the Raeder daggers nor the D�nitz dagger given to Brandi are close to the dagger you have posted. I am very sorry that I am not able to provide you with further informations. But the honour dagger in Puypes famous article from 1974 does not look like the dagger you have posted. Sorry again.
Best regards;
Flyingdutchman

Hey 88 lets see that maker mark please sir.

I can't find the thread but a few members might remember we discussed this dagger a few years ago or one like it. If I remember correctly, like this one shown it was also determined to be a reproduction. A guy from Belgium had a number of high end daggers he received from his father and posted them for us to view. They were sent to Craig Gottlieb to be photographed for his reproduction book.

I agree the blade is not real damascus but if DAMAST would show a side by side of etched and real for Railgun88 it just might help him a little better. Regards and thank you.

The book damascus steel by Manfred Sachse is always on e-bay. He is known as the Godfather of modern German damascus..Best book out there!! It is a great book and has a chapter on etched damascus ..I have been to his forge twice . He bought WE-DI Smith WESTER DINGER From Carl Wester. He is now retired and sold the forge..
Regards: James

These daggers were produced in the early 1970s and I can remember well the ads for them in the Shotgun News and other trade publications. They originated in Europe. No real damascus steel in these blades and the workmanship is not up to standards.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Found some reference of repro Honour daggers I saved years back, don't know who to credit them to. This collector had 3 of them, quite beautifull, but early repros. These are usually marked with PDL, Horster, Holler or Weyersberg maker marks.

Red

Another

Closeup. These also came in various styles of Damascus...

Red Baron,

nice addition, thanks for posting.

Btw: This post gives you the reason why Vic and I will not show any KM honour dagger in our book. We were not able to find an original one which was beyond any doubt.

Best;
Flyingdutchman

WOW! Red Baron! You Da MAN! Now we are talking.

Now, Does anyone have any photos of the REVERSES of the Blades showing the maker marks and any dedications? Red Baron?

Does anyone have any idea how much these things originally sold for? RG88

The reproduction daggers posted by red baron are not damascus steel... Etched pattern damascus on plain steel blades....I'm sure others will confirm this..This whole thread should be in a dagger reproduction (postwar) thread.. There were some very high quality Navy Honor dagger reproductions made with Real damascus blades...Some presented and a few not...A picture I have had for a few years forgot were it came from...Blade is postwar REAL damascus..

I believe the late Bob Waites had several Naval Honor Daggers. If they are not still with the family, Brian Maederer would know where they are.

Damast, Please let it go! If you think the blade is not Real damascus, So Be It. I won't argue that point any further. When I made my post I had no idea whether the dagger was authentic or not, so the placement of the post was, and is, appropriate! Now, let it proceed and play out so that we all can maybe learn something from what others wish to post. At this point you are just starting to sound petulant. Please just let it go! To everyone else,HERE is the Wallis and Wallis Tag that was on the piece when I acquired it and a photo of the Maker mark. RG88