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Joined: Aug 2003
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Yes G very well said.
G, Where should I put my post? Thanks.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Antonio Scapini,
Very interesting stuff and thank you for all you have done. Unfortunately I haven't your book yet. I am most certainly not an expert like yourself or as knowledgeable. IYO "the double way" was used. Maybe I should get your book first before I comment lol. Antonio I don't think it's impossible to resolve, anything is possible. As you probably already know this Double process was really something. Meaning two metals. The precious metal and alloys are separate. The sheets of double metal are placed on top of each other, heated in a type of furnace and welded together under hydraulic presses at very high pressure then rolled out to any desired thickness. Round discs are punched out of this double sheet metal and then seamless tubes are drawn from them. This process was manufactured in special factories and supplied in sheet and wire. The production of double wire is more difficult and the procedures are different.. . Both methods require rolling respectively and very well-trained personnel to say the least.
A very short version of the procedures and I hope you don't mind Antonio. Just to clarify, in your opinion you believe it's from these seamless tubes that the HR was made? Just tell me to be quite and get your book lol. All the best! Thanks Mikee for your post. Indeed something I was waiting since years... The Doublè happened exactly the way you wrote. I also reported this on my research. But... rings are not really "doublè", I just mentioned the "doublè style" because there are 2 layers togheter, and to obtain it, usually both pressure and heat, are necessary (it is also possible to obtain a 2 layers band with heat only...). I am sure TK rings has a layer inside for these reasons: 1) internal layer has a different composition with respect to the central band of the ring; 2) the X-rays that work on copies made in silver, don't work on TK rings (the inner layer with tin stops them and a much more higher exposure is needed to obtain something); 3) some parts of the inner layer sometimes lift-off and you see missing pieces of metal (and this is something absolutely impossible to happen on a one piece ring made by casting or pressing). And I was not able to understand if the inner layer was added thru pressure or heat, or both. IMO rings bands were all made that way and I am quite sure (for several reasons I didn't write on the book to avoid it becomes too boring) at the beginning there was only a long tube with inner layer then cut in rings. Not sure you understand what I mean, so apologies if I was not clear, but it is hard to explain. PS: is it possible Gahr used blank rings made by specialized factories as you mentioned... We really know nothing about.
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Antonio, This is really awesome.
"Oh wow this makes plenty sense Antonio, I really have to get your book. From your text above, I'm really thinking this sure sounds like the method could still be Double. The reason I state this and I could be wrong because I haven't read your book. Is in this double sheet metal method the precious metal wasn't mixed with the base medal but would lie separately on the surface. They would use alloyed gold for this process, but we are talking silver of course. With Silver, a much stronger thicker layer of tombac or silver was used. This could explain the X-ray anomaly and the two layer band as you call it. During the production of double sheet metal, the sheet surfaces would be scraped smooth and flat, then are placed on top of each other, heated in a furnace and welded together under hydraulic presses at very high pressure. Nothing is perfect, so maybe this is where you see the lifting between layers or between the sheet metal. Thank you for listening to me babble lol. Can't wait to get your book. Best!
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Joined: Oct 2011
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I first realized some anomalies when I saw the Koschulla ring and checked it with microscope. It had some missing pieces of metal inside. Then I saw some more in various rings. It is something you don't usually pay attention to, something no one has ever talk about. Sometimes you need a microscope or a very good loupe to see them. Furthermore they were mostly present on the engraving, where the thickness of the inner layer is minimum and metal, being very thin, can detaches. And this has sense too, and perfectly matches with all the rest of the ring construction. I'm sure now many collectors will check their rings engraving... (PS: you need a very good magnifier or a microscope!!!) I want to show you what I mean, since the book is already published and informations are no longer a "secret" (on the book you will see several proofs about this). It would be nice to hear from those who think rings are one piece (cast or pressed) how can it be possible this happens...
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Joined: Oct 2011
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OP
Joined: Oct 2011
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I don't think those pics prove one way or the other. From what I can make out it could be dirt, grime or nick.
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Joined: Jan 2015
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Joined: Jan 2015
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I know I will be booted out of this discussion after this, but, seems there is little knowledge of the way these rings were made and engraved. And this is probably due to the fact that they were made some 85 years ago. Things were very different then, we know that. But for me, it is difficult to know how it really was then. There was a WAR going on. I can just see a jeweler engraving a ring for the SS with all that was going on then, bombs going off, anti aircraft guns, etc,. knowing that if he screwed up, it would not be good for him. Seems to me this could go on till the end of time with no solution. Example, can we prove beyond a doubt the rings were made in Germany?? They did occupy several countries then. Sorry for butting in, this post on HR's has been a great read for me, and very informative, thank you all. Ed
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Joined: Oct 2011
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OP
Joined: Oct 2011
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Ed Nobody will boot you out:) Healthy discussion is great but agree with you on your statement "Seems to me this could go on till the end of time with no solution". I don't think there is a doubt on manufacturing location though.
Last edited by Tanker; 03/31/2022 04:22 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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I don't think those pics prove one way or the other. From what I can make out it could be dirt, grime or nick. Ron, please read my post: in the book there are several evidences, just look at them. All the statements I write here are fully supported. I have to prove nothing here, and I don't want, all is already supported in the book and explained in a logic way that is not possible to replicate here. Anyway, that is not a nick (just look at the dimension and the shape; irregular borders are not nicks, nicks cannot happen that way!), nor grime. It is a missing piece of metal. Some are 200-400 µm. Exacly as happened in other rings.... Or do you think someone excaved several rings with a mini tool just excatly inside the engravings? Just kiddin', it is impossible to obtain those shapes without leaving traces around the borders of the missing parts. A nick or hit simply move the metal, don't remove it, especially in a so small area. It is physically impossible to remove pieces of metal, like they were a layer, from a pressed or a cast piece. So, I am sorry for those who think rings are one piece made, because they will never find an answer for this. Furthermore the XRF analysys confirm the metal composition of the inside is different from the central band (why if it is not made of multiple layers?). And again: the inner layer composition with tin make not possible to use X-rays with the same intensity of every other silver ring (made by casting or pressing). These are solid evideces with the bonus they were released by specialized firms (and reported in the book).
Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 03/31/2022 05:44 PM.
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Tanker |
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Joined: Oct 2011
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OP
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On those pics I do see it better. I do not have the book so I am at a disadvantage on the info. Appreciate the extra pics/info
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Joined: Jun 2002
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a book is always worth a read.. Antonios is comprehensive. We don't know exactly every aspect of manufacture.. 30s, 40s had a lot of experimentation. Supersonic jets, buzz bombs [our modern day drones] and even advertised in trade guild booklets some crazy things that were tried but not put in to production.. In the US we certainly had our share of 'snake oil' salesmen.. Some crazy ideas, some worked,,some don't..
What we do know for sure only Firma Gahr had the contract to make the rings. They were not the usual one piece made in a press ring. Nor,,were they a simple lost wax/investment cast method... Antonios book explains the method he thinks they are made due to his findings. So far we hear yes, great!, or no way! But the 'no way guys',,come on at least offer a alternate explanation..... AND, sadly,,,this all affects the market on these pieces..
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Thanks G., now we have some solid data about how many parts these rings are made of. And these data are no questionable anymore.
I agree on the fact that there still are some possible different explanations about a couple of production steps (but not on the final result) and a total lack of informations about the tools used for one type of the engravings...
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