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#354094 03/18/2022 07:33 PM
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Has the market improved since AS's book came out? Wonder if it would ease concerns on sales. Ron

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Tanker #354096 03/19/2022 11:58 AM
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But what, before his book, everything was very bad?

Tanker #354097 03/19/2022 01:40 PM
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The market the last couple years has depended on your location.. Here in America a few years ago when collectors started to doubt Dons CoAs the market did slow down. Those that didn't care about his certs bought and either got a good one or later to find out a bad one..

In Europe, East Europe, elsewhere where they would not pay Don, didn't want to send their ring, or didn't care about his certs the market was probably a little better and they bought on consensus by asking here, the German and East European forums which seems to be working out.

Like our PP rings. Now that we know a little more about the HR collectors will be careful. The old scams of adding a fake HR to a famous grouping are still out there. Stories, ground dug, etc. etc. We must continue to help each other, study originals, patience, so as usual be careful.

Tanker #354098 03/19/2022 01:56 PM
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Gaspare
Good assessment/observation. Thanks Ron

Tanker #354103 03/19/2022 06:25 PM
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If a person does not want to study himself, then no books will help him, all the data has long been on the Internet, there are many photographs, it remains only to look and study.
If you do nothing, then no matter how many books there are, knowledge will not increase.

Evgeniy #354104 03/19/2022 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
If a person does not want to study himself, then no books will help him, all the data has long been on the Internet, there are many photographs, it remains only to look and study.
If you do nothing, then no matter how many books there are, knowledge will not increase.

I think I understand what you are saying.

Tanker #354108 03/21/2022 12:28 AM
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A agree it is up to the collector how much he 'seeks' to learn.. We learned without the book. But it is out there and a useful tool. Books have always been out there for 1000s years. We are super lucky now to have the internet in our lifetime.. But books are and will always be useful..... Enjoy it guys,,,enjoy it all...

Tanker #354120 03/22/2022 03:10 PM
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Gaspare is right. Yes, with internet you can get a very good evaluation if the pics are good. GDC has been great in ring documentation. Thanks to all.Ron

Evgeniy #354125 03/23/2022 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
If a person does not want to study himself, then no books will help him, all the data has long been on the Internet, there are many photographs, it remains only to look and study.
If you do nothing, then no matter how many books there are, knowledge will not increase.

If all the data were available on internet, why no one since today has ever explained how many types of rings and how were they made?

Own a couple of rings and look at some pictures on internet is for sure not enough. And for all those that read the book it is very clear. For all the rest of the rings lovers, rings are made simply following their beliefs, so one think they are cast, another they are die struck, another they are forged... In 20 years (of forums) no one was ever able to tell a single word and show a single evidence about these rings. This is the level of knowledge we reached with the "data on the internet" as you say... I think we should be honest and admit we knew almost nothing about.
Here are some examples of the level of knowledge we reached in 20 years of forums:

Originally Posted by Ric Ferrari
Well, I believe SSHr were made by pressing a blank planchet into a die, the same way Hapur make his SSHr repro.....to be clear.

Originally Posted by Evgeniy
Rings are a monolitic piece
Originally Posted by Evgeniy
Multiple layers ring is your dreamer's fantasy

I always asked myself: if you don't know how an item is made, how can you be able to distinguish a good from a fake?
And the answer is only one: you can't.


300 pages of research would be useless if all the data were already available. But they weren't.

It would be funny to check how many fakes were considered originals...

About the question made by Tanker I have seen the HR market is incredibly grew up in last 2-3 years. I agree with Gaspare: there was a period where the HR market was slow, and it happened when collectors realized what was happening. Nowdays there is more confidence, even if fakes are still sold and certified... Even via email, that is quite ridiculous.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 03/23/2022 07:59 AM.
Tanker #354126 03/23/2022 02:24 PM
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Just to avoid misunderstandings: my post is not polemic. I just want to highlight that, at least sometimes, we should be honest, and admit all the mistakes we made.

We never studied these rings, we had no decent data, no decent comparisons, nothing; and the result was that for the last 20 years everyone had a different idea without any evidence. And this is IMO not serious.
Furthermore in front of some evidences many collectors covered their eyes and stood on absurd positions even if they can't have any proof, just because they would never admit they were wrong, because they consider themselves "experts", and experts cannot be wrong. And this is the nonsense that lasted for more than 20 years.

Tanker #354127 03/23/2022 03:21 PM
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Thanks, Antonio.

That was well said

Tanker #354128 03/23/2022 04:33 PM
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Antonio,

Yep very well said!

Tanker #354129 03/23/2022 04:44 PM
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Appreciate the info on market trend, but certainly did not want this to turn into another thread of defending positions or denigrating previous collectors/researchers. They worked with what they had available and researched at the time. Ron

Tanker #354138 03/24/2022 09:56 AM
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I was able to understand the technique of making rings only after I bought the original, in good condition, and was able to carefully study all the details of the ring, unfortunately their cost is high, it is difficult to buy such things.
After I got the ring and time, I was able to understand the essence
And also to understand that the method of production of rings in the 30s and 40s was most likely different - my theory, supported by certain details on the rings themselves.
Yes, some things are not obvious from the photo, they only gave a basis, while the ring was not in hand, it was difficult to understand some things ...

Tanker #354141 03/24/2022 03:32 PM
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I agree with Tanker. Mistakes were made but now we know more.

For someone who has seen HRs but does not collect them - tell me how they were made and inscribed - in a few words. Please

Dave

Dave #354145 03/25/2022 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
I was able to understand the technique of making rings only after I bought the original.
After I got the ring and time, I was able to understand the essence.

Originally Posted by Dave
For someone who has seen HRs but does not collect them - tell me how they were made and inscribed - in a few words. Please

Dave

I echo Dave statement. I am curious me too to read how these rings were made. I am always ready and happy to listen and see opinions based on real evidences (because that is something that never happened in the past).

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Originally Posted by Dave
For someone who has seen HRs but does not collect them - tell me how they were made and inscribed - in a few words. Please

Dave

I echo Dave statement. I am curious me too to read how these rings were made. I am always ready and happy to listen and see opinions based on real evidences (because that is something that never happened in the past).[/quote]

Didn't you address this in your book?
Ron

Tanker #354154 03/25/2022 05:13 PM
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Yes Ron, but if someone knew how they were made I am curious to know the way he used... Since it took me years, and not simply looking at one or two. I spent hours and hours making comparisons with tens and tens of rings, then hours and hours on microscope to find flaws and apply the reverse engeneering... And, the most important thing is that even using SEM there are some points that are still inexplicable.
Furthermore I have never seen anyone posting comparisons and explaining all the inconsistencies I highlited in the past with the "accredited" theories.
So please, let me be curious about the other ways to study rings. I am not kind, I know, but I am always happy to learn more and to help and share what I find.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 03/25/2022 05:13 PM.
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Tanker #354189 03/28/2022 02:41 PM
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I have always find interesting to see when it is time to be "keyboard lyons" many people is always ready to insult, denigrate what they don't know, play "experts"... and when it is time to prove with solid evidences and show everyone what they are really able to do, they punctually disappear or they fall silent. Luckily I'm not an expert and I make many mistakes trying to not to write idiocies...
So, when you ask to an expert to show how rings were made, no one show anything. Or, at their best, they write some riduculous post with no logical relation with the real data.
I could quote tens and tens of the posts made by several collectors that now are disappeared, I saved almost all them during the years.

And so now we are still waiting for Evgeniy to explain how these rings were made, seems in the past he had a little of confusion about... lost wax casting, then no more wax casting and then again wax...

Last edited by Dave; 03/28/2022 03:15 PM. Reason: Edited for insults
Tanker #354190 03/28/2022 03:17 PM
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Antonio, please tone down your messages.

Actually, it was you whom I asked to explain how the rings were made

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Tanker #354191 03/28/2022 03:35 PM
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Well we have the 1st and 2nd type HRs.

Evgeniys HRs are very well made both in look and quality... But look at a 2nd type authentic HR and that tells you it wasn't a simple investment/lost wax cast.... - *Antonio I'd say your book is a close as we're going to get without a time machine! Many who have read it and understand the science like it.. I showed the book to a local jeweler and after 15 min flipping thru said 'WOW', This is a weird ring for whatever reason'.

He doesn't know nazi theme pieces but knows, mass production press method, lost wax [both vacuum and pressure assist], 'pie plate' multiple manufacturing, and he said its none of them..
What puzzles him is that no 2 are the same microscopically but show some matching traits.. We aren't talking just the hand finishing,,it was other things he saw.. We know the skulls were a piece on their own so there is conformity. he mentioned the bands are puzzling and agreed with the books findings.
It's very easy to criticize something without actually reading/seeing the findings. So unfortunate for Don its wasn't how he says they were made.. Many of you agree no matter where you are around the world,, some of his certified HRs are not authentic.

So name calling, criticizing [especially when you have not seen the book] is just unfair and its another person like Don who for years made plenty of money assuming things and is claiming to be a expert for whatever reason..

Anyone is always encouraged to offer a theory on how they were made. . But so far it is just calling another's findings wrong without offering their theory...
Be careful out there guys. General consensus on authenticity most of the time is dangerous. 20,,50, years from now a good aging on Evgeniys HR and it too will be authentic!

SO,,IT is very simple - , are there any of you out there with the book and after reading it totally disagree? and why..

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Tanker #354192 03/28/2022 04:19 PM
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for those without the book these are just from another topic here..



But looking at just these 3 pages,,,,,What is wrong with these findings??

GDC1.jpg (74.54 KB, 164 downloads)
GDC2.jpg (98.85 KB, 164 downloads)
GDC3.jpg (83.01 KB, 164 downloads)
Gaspare #354193 03/28/2022 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave
Antonio, please tone down your messages.
Hi Dave, sorry if I wrote something wrong, I thought that quoting what he wrote about his theory and how he denigrates my work without knowing it, was not a problem (all the quotes were taken from this forum so not sure why they were deleted).

Anyway I don't think someone who wrote conflicting theories will ever have real evidences to support his denigrations.

I honestly beared for too many years too many attacks and nonseses to keep my mouth closed again. So everytime one of the "experts" and their theories surface, I'll be happy to be there asking for proofs and to show him all the nonsenses he wrote during these last 5 years. I am not an expert, I simply ask the experts to reply.

About the production method Dave, I would say it is necessary to understand many things before understanding it. It is also not easy to explain for me (since I don't know english so well to really be clear), and because Gahr changed dies but also ring bands for 4 times between 1933 and 1945 and rings are multiple pieces made...

Originally Posted by Gaspare
Well we have the 1st and 2nd type HRs.

Evgeniys HRs are very well made both in look and quality... But look at a 2nd type authentic HR and that tells you it wasn't a simple investment/lost wax cast.... - *Antonio I'd say your book is a close as we're going to get without a time machine! Many who have read it and understand the science like it.. I showed the book to a local jeweler and after 15 min flipping thru said 'WOW', This is a weird ring for whatever reason'.

He doesn't know nazi theme pieces but knows, mass production press method, lost wax [both vacuum and pressure assist], 'pie plate' multiple manufacturing, and he said its none of them..
What puzzles him is that no 2 are the same microscopically but show some matching traits.. We aren't talking just the hand finishing,,it was other things he saw.. We know the skulls were a piece on their own so there is conformity. he mentioned the bands are puzzling and agreed with the books findings.
It's very easy to criticize something without actually reading/seeing the findings. So unfortunate for Don its wasn't how he says they were made..

So name calling, criticizing [especially when you have not seen the book] is just unfair and its another person like Don who for years made plenty of money assuming things and is claiming to be a expert for whatever reason..

Anyone is always encouraged to offer a theory on how they were made. . But so far it is just calling another's findings wrong without offering their theory...
Be careful out there guys. General consensus on authenticity most of the time is dangerous. 20,,50, years from now a good aging on Evgeniys HR and it too will be authentic!

SO,,IT is very simple - , are there any of you out there with the book and after reading it totally disagree? and why..

Thanks for your calmness and for your words.
I agree with you, since I told it some years ago me too, Evgeniy rings in some years will be sell as originals. Furthermore people don't understand that with 100$ you can have a "perfect" copy that with some artificial aging is very close to an original. I asked to make copies, also with soldered skull, and it is quite simple with a nice ring.

I would really like to discuss on rings, several things are IMO still on the table (like the engraving for example!), instead quote denigrations...

Tanker #354195 03/28/2022 06:33 PM
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Thanks Gaspare.

We encourage discussion, including robust discussion, but ask that the language be as neutral as possible so as to concentrate on the items and not raise tempers.

When a person writes conflicting answers, it is usually a sign of learning. I have done it myself over the years.

I suspect that you are right, Mr. Scapini, in saying that today's good copies will be tomorrow's original. That is nothing new in our hobby, unfortunately, but buyers want accurate copies. Look at SS uniforms.

So, what are the point left to resolve ?

Tanker #354197 03/28/2022 09:40 PM
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"look at SS uniforms" eek crazy ;),,,,,,do we have to!! We had a member years ago that bought a SS tank wrapper, a Dachau Depot type supposedly that had been found.. There were a bundle of them out there, and he paid what I'd say a LOT of money for it. Everyone loved them. They were devoid of insignia. Plain black and buttons , thats it..
Well first some were badging them up,,shoulder boards, Ribbon, a couple badges etc. and passing as "as found".. Then,,what blew it for my buddy they suddenly were called in to question!! cry - It was at a SOS and he brought his and there were 2 others there. All 3 guys were comparing this, that etc. Came down to checking 'threads per inch' on the seams!. ALL 3 were slightly different,,but by like ONE stitch!, maybe 2. Then suddenly all 3 were not happy with their stars of their collections! My buddy sold his at that show,,,then completely started selling everything. Cloth, badges/medals, daggers everything. He got out... And said it was the best thing he's ever done... Sorry for the long story -
anyway,,,,

I met Evgeniy many years ago in person at the Kiev military/antique show.. I'd like to think he's been a instant friend right away as we both liked rings and were crazy enough to hunt them anywhere.. He has a great ring collection and makes the best copy HR out there... He's done his studying and paid for his mistakes like the rest of us.

Antonio I met thru the internet a few years ago.. He knew something was wrong with Dons thinking/assumptions about the HR. We exchanged many emails and had some good debates etc. His book is more than the electron microscope work [which there is nothing wrong with]. Comparisons with many HRs, testing, and what I think is important is the reverse engineering. He to has done plenty of study and has paid his dues. * - ALL he asks for is what are the other theories,,,not 'your wrong etc.'

I don't think either of these 2 dislike each other it is the language barrier,,the frustration of both... We have a Russian, an Italian, a New Yorker, and others whose first language isn't American. grin So again sorry for a long post... We get a lot done here with HRs and PP rings. Like it or not this is the place to discuss rings and thats because of the members willing to show their pieces. It is hard especially in the beginning but the forum has turned up some excellent ring collectors..
So lets hear an alternate theory to Antonios findings! or get to work on your own and prove it...

The book is very good and worth to have in your library even if you don't collect HRs. It will help in your decision if collecting the HR is truly for you!

Tanker #354198 03/28/2022 09:47 PM
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OH yeah,,, years ago John Pep, Joe Wotka had done some very good research. Test what the HR was made of among other things. Rob Wells and the both of them also computed out what IF a HR was engraved in the flat,, and then rounded,, what would happen to the engraving [ spoiler alert,,deformity was almost nil]...

Hope Joe see's this and can remind us of the tests exactly and what he thinks so far of Antonio's theories. Thanks guys..,G..

Dave #354203 03/29/2022 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave
Thanks Gaspare.

We encourage discussion, including robust discussion, but ask that the language be as neutral as possible so as to concentrate on the items and not raise tempers.

When a person writes conflicting answers, it is usually a sign of learning. I have done it myself over the years.

I suspect that you are right, Mr. Scapini, in saying that today's good copies will be tomorrow's original. That is nothing new in our hobby, unfortunately, but buyers want accurate copies. Look at SS uniforms.
Everyone make mistakes, me first. What I find ridiculous is to denigrate something you don't know without offering anything but nonsenses.

That said, I will show a copy I made for the book some years ago, that is still sitting on my desk. Less than 100 euro and can fool in pictures and in hands too. But people seems to not to understand it, that is why I always say "we must check rings with good magnifications or microscope", it is no more time to believe what you see, like Chris said "There is simply too much money at stake to rely on hearsay and handshakes".

Originally Posted by Dave
So, what are the point left to resolve?
First we always have to keep in mind the different parts of the ring.

One is IMO impossible to resolve, and it is regarding how the inner layer was added (because different ways can lead to the same result). IMO was a long tube made in the "doublè" way, then cut in several rings. On the book there are some examples of rings (WW1 and WW2) that have a inner layer.

The second is about the engraving. Different tools were used, not only burins, so we have 2 types of writing, one that shows the grooves left by buring, and another made with something that left the surface like it was "cast", but as far as I know, nothing used in '30-'40 could work that way...

The third is about the wooden frame for the certificates, it existed, it was produced, it was delivered, but we know nothing about...

Another is about the prototype box...

....

There still are some interesting aspects to be studied.

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2 scapini
I am silent because I do not want to share this information with you )))

Last edited by Evgeniy; 03/29/2022 11:38 AM.
Evgeniy #354206 03/29/2022 01:12 PM
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Let me show your opinions about rings... It seems to me you have a lot of confusion about these rings...

You didn't know if Gahr used a die or what...
Originally Posted by Evgeniy
Gar had already mastered the production of castings - finials for flagophos.
But whether he used a stamp for jewelry in his production, I do not know.

Then Gahr made many wax models at once
Originally Posted by Evgeniy
If question about wax model - IMO answer is very simple: just was made many more wax models at once and molded rings (for example 20-100 rings with the same deffect), then was made other part of wax model (where may be was fix it deffect)

Then Gahr didn't used wax casting as you do
Originally Posted by Evgeniy
So the casting method itself was not casting using wax (as I do).

And finally Gahr used exactly the way you use to make rings!
Originally Posted by Evgeniy
I think rings was made something like mine rings.


I find all this fantastic! You spoke about rings for years, writing how they were made (and you clearly have no idea!) and now you denigrate what you don't know and don't share your "secret" informations... Do you really think someone can believe you?

Why don't you start discussing what is wrong in evidences I showed? Let see if you can face a real discussion instead insulting or denigrating...

I close quoting you again:
Originally Posted by Evgeniy
I am always interested in the sources of your knowledge, if someone asserts, then he can provide evidence. So I ask for proof
If you assert something, where are your evidences??? It is easy to talk, but only few can support what they say. And you can't.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 03/29/2022 01:33 PM.
Tanker #354209 03/29/2022 07:26 PM
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I'm having trouble reading the yellow text. Can it be brightened. Thank you.

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Mikee,, your the man but,,,,thats a ton of work!! eek

- IF you highlight it with your mouse or finger pad the letters/words come out dark....................

Tanker #354211 03/29/2022 09:53 PM
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I regret every asking the question about market value. This thread has gone in the wrong direction of my original question. I suggest if A.S. and Evigeny want to continue discussing the construction aspects of the ring, then please create a separate thread. I also suggest both (especially A.S.) to step back and think about how the post will be taken. Granted there is a language barrier but regardless, tack and politeness is spoken in every language. Ron

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Tanker, and everyone else.
How could all this bickering help the selling of HR's.
If they were just a couple of hundred dollars, most people would be out, let alone thousands.
Just my 2c

ed773 #354215 03/30/2022 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ed773
Tanker, and everyone else.
How could all this bickering help the selling of HR's.
If they were just a couple of hundred dollars, most people would be out, let alone thousands.
Just my 2c
This "bickering has been going on between these 2 individuals for quite some time. They are just going to have to agree to disagree. They are not getting anyplace with the current attitude. If you like HR's fine, Then collect then and ask for review (internet can provide that). If HR's are your area and the history does not appeal to you, then move on.

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Antonio Scapini,

Very interesting stuff and thank you for all you have done. Unfortunately I haven't your book yet. I am most certainly not an expert like yourself or as knowledgeable. IYO "the double way" was used. Maybe I should get your book first before I comment lol. Antonio I don't think it's impossible to resolve, anything is possible. As you probably already know this Double process was really something. Meaning two metals. The precious metal and alloys are separate. The sheets of double metal are placed on top of each other, heated in a type of furnace and welded together under hydraulic presses at very high pressure then rolled out to any desired thickness. Round discs are punched out of this double sheet metal and then seamless tubes are drawn from them. This process was manufactured in special factories and supplied in sheet and wire. The production of double wire is more difficult and the procedures are different.. . Both methods require rolling respectively and very well-trained personnel to say the least.

A very short version of the procedures and I hope you don't mind Antonio. Just to clarify, in your opinion you believe it's from these seamless tubes that the HR was made? Just tell me to be quite and get your book lol. All the best!

Tanker #354218 03/30/2022 01:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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I can remove the yellow if requested by the poster

This contest between Antonio and Evgeniy is getting old. No one is getting answers to their questions

And I am getting email suggesting the the last part - NOT about the original subject - be deleted.

What do you think, Gaspare ?

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Tanker #354219 03/30/2022 01:57 AM
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Thanks G,

That did it lol

Tanker #354220 03/30/2022 02:01 AM
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Dave,

I mean personally it doesn't effect me none. I don't mind it. I would say leave it. Debate is good. As if my 2 cents mean anything lol

Tanker #354221 03/30/2022 02:04 AM
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OK guys... Yes both members are good guys that we've all appreciated in the past. Construction is still a 'hot topic'. We know Antonios point of view.. And kind of know Evgeniys although he's saying it more to it.....

- Here on this topic for now we'll go with the agree to disagree route. IF, if a member has a theory on construction your always welcome to find the old topic OR its fine to start another . Like the movie,,,'explain it like I'm 6 years old' grin So get your finding or even just thoughts and lets read them.. As for now:


"Has the market improved since AS's book came out? Wonder if it would ease concerns on sales. Ron"

* Really the market has been slow the last few years. Dons certs are meaningless now... Covid,, the bad economies around the world. Mainly what has been scaring some sales are the mixed consensus we see on various forums, FB, etc. IF we can get some theories going on construction along with Antonios on a different topic that would help sales..

I think the guys with good condition 1st pattern HRs you can just about say its a 'one looker' . - They are selling better I've noticed.. * Ron,, you have a one looker to me.. When its time for that ring to move on I don't think there will be any sale problems...

- 1st pattern,,,2nd pattern,, would you guys agree it affects sales?? My opinion,,I think it does. . Seems a 1st pattern will out sell a 2nd pattern given everything the same..... . My opinion,,,what do you guys say? Difference in a Sale a 1st against a 2nd??

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Tanker #354222 03/30/2022 03:08 AM
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Gaspare
Thank you for a well said post. As I have said in the past you have been a great asset to us and always provide a well said down to earth view. Ron

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