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#353938 03/04/2022 08:51 PM
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So,, a few of you have already gotten Antonio's book. And/or have had a bunch of experience...

- What say you guys? Yay or nay.?

Ehr.jpg (47.14 KB, 302 downloads)
Ehr2.jpg (46.19 KB, 302 downloads)
Gaspare #353939 03/04/2022 08:52 PM
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Here's a couple more:

Ehr3.jpg (45.18 KB, 302 downloads)
Ehr4.jpg (41.51 KB, 302 downloads)
Gaspare #353952 03/05/2022 08:38 PM
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Ive seen that ring on WAF and was offered it for sale by former owner. The engraving is ugly and cast and not hand done. If I remember correctly the former owner returned the ring after learning it was a fake. However it was then resold for an even higher amount. I feel bad for whoever bought this under the impression it was original.

Best regards,
Sarcasmos

Gaspare #353953 03/05/2022 09:01 PM
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Can we get better pics of the engraving? Thank you

Gaspare #353954 03/05/2022 09:06 PM
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Here you go, courtesy of WAF.

image_5100283.jpg (48.38 KB, 274 downloads)
image_5100285.jpg (52.6 KB, 274 downloads)
image_5100289.jpg (62.57 KB, 274 downloads)
image_5100284.jpg (48.54 KB, 275 downloads)
Gaspare #353955 03/05/2022 09:07 PM
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Compare those to an original 44 ring:

image_5100479.jpg (42.09 KB, 274 downloads)
image_5100482.jpg (43.83 KB, 274 downloads)
Gaspare #353964 03/06/2022 05:09 PM
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it is very clear that this is a copy

Gaspare #353969 03/07/2022 05:11 AM
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Evgeniy and you others are correct.. It is , kind of, a decent fake but a fake none the less..

Problem is,,,,this HR is sold with a CoA from Don.!.. The cert is for sure authentic.. The ring now owned by a dealer, in question I'm pretty sure has been sold twice and refunded twice!

- So,,, Some tips;
IF bad photos make sure you have a refund policy before you buy!
Don God love him has had his day.. Anything he has certified in the past must be scrutinized to the Nth degree!
Ground Dug doesn't prove authenticity nor is it a provenance.
Direct in hand comparisons [or dam good photos] of the same year HR could help..
Read all the research before you buy!
Stories also don't prove a ring ,,,nor a HR in a grouping with everything else authentic means nothing..

Our forums help. There are guys with many years experience with HRs and the fakes of HRs. Don's book has some good overall history and facts for beginners who study the HR.. While Antonios new book now seems to be of great help. Exhaustive scientific findings that put away the single die pressed theory .

IF any of you have more tips please feel free to help and add them here,,,thanks.

Be careful guys as always,,,and happy hunting...,G.

Last edited by Gaspare; 03/07/2022 05:13 AM.
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Gaspare #353981 03/07/2022 04:57 PM
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Now is a very good time, there are many Internet resources and forums when you can consult and ask for help.
Do not rush to buy until you are sure of authenticity

Gaspare #353985 03/07/2022 05:50 PM
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I think Don did the best he could with what info was available. We now look at his work from the todays outlook of and it is sadly lacking real research. Using his knowledge today to authenticate a ring would be doing the buyer a disservice. It is a shame that greed has taken over this hobby and history is secondary. No wonder todays collecting community is reluctant to pursue this area.
As said before, post your ring when in doubt and with the knowledge the forums have, you can can only benefit from it. I don't do much on the internet, but this is a positve for it. Ron

Gaspare #353986 03/07/2022 08:15 PM
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A key point here is to scrutinize any story or grouping, even if everything is authentic! One example I will use here is still available! The large militaria site The Ruptured Duck is currently selling a grouping that is named to SS General Dr. Werner Best, the grouping is said to come from a Danish Policeman who confiscated the items. In the grouping is *supposedly* Dr. Werner Best's original Totenkopfring (Honor Ring). However, when I did some digging, I found out that Dr. Best was awarded his ring in 1934, or even possibly 1933, and the ring offered on the site is a 1941 dated ring, FAR too late of a date to be Best's. After posting about this discovery on the WAF, I found out that the ring was originally sold by Kai Winkler in 2009, by itself, and not part of any grouping, for just under 3500 Euro, and was not named to Werner Best. However, the ring resurfaced in 2016 when Hermann Historica auctioned off the ring, now suddenly together with this grouping and named to Werner Best for significantly more than the original 3500. I contacted Bill, the owner of the site and presented what I had found, and he had the ring certified by DB, who saw the grouping with the ring and certified it as a "Re-issued Honor Ring to Doctor Werner Best".

If the ring was a reissue, we would see the original award date, so if it was the ring of Dr. Best, it would be a 40's style ring with a 33 or 34 date on the inside, not an entirely new date. The entire grouping is currently for sale on the Ruptured Duck site for $26,750.00 USD. Long story short: ALWAYS DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND DUE DILIGENCE. I had a friend who asked me for advice on if I believed the ring was original, and if it belonged to Werner Best as he was interested in buying it, and when I showed him what I found he was shocked. I like to think I saved him a significant amount of money there.

https://www.therupturedduck.com/pro...-wow?_pos=2&_sid=4b7cbba07&_ss=r

Best regards,
Sarcasmos

Last edited by Sarcasmos; 03/07/2022 08:24 PM.
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Gaspare #353987 03/07/2022 10:43 PM
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Great detective work, Sarcasmos !

I had not heard of re-issued rings. Could you tell us a little about them, please ?

Dave

Dave #353988 03/08/2022 12:25 AM
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Hi Dave!

Re issued rings were given out when the owner lost their original ring. They are very rare, and I have only seen a few examples of them. Usually they appear in the form of a 40's style ring and have a 30's date, such as a ring in the '42 year model but having an award date on the inside of 30.6.34. I will have to go back and see if I can find some more pictures of re issued rings, but here is one that I can find, courtesy of WAF forum. It is a 40's style ring but has an inside date of 7.3.36, despite the fact it is obviously not a 30s ring, and I will also attach a picture of a original 7.3.36 ring for comparison. It belonged to a concentration camp officer "Gunter Klingsporn".

267fbf10bb4c963506e57a27e3a45047_40.jpg (36.3 KB, 195 downloads)
928acf0547f6d8750627a3c489217e88_50.jpg (53.53 KB, 195 downloads)
vyrp14_5IMG_0007A_50.jpg (16.46 KB, 195 downloads)
Gaspare #353989 03/08/2022 02:57 AM
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Thanks, Sarcasmos,

I can see where those would be very scarce.

Dave

Gaspare #354000 03/08/2022 07:00 PM
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the reissue would have the original date.... Biggest reason for a reissue is the 1st type wore out rather quickly if constantly worn [even has a different look]. The 2nd type lasted much longer,,,and yes,,a reissue is pretty rare!

Gaspare #354003 03/08/2022 07:32 PM
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I'm guessing that there was a long printed form to fill out - Ring, Honor - Request for the Replacement Thereof !

Dave #354004 03/08/2022 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave
I'm guessing that there was a long printed form to fill out - Ring, Honor - Request for the Replacement Thereof !


Apparently it wasn't that easy to get a replacement ring, as an elderly lady told me about her father....

I have a ring in my collection with a misspelled name.
The daughter told me that after receiving the ring and seeing the spelling mistake in it, her father decided not to complain and therefore not to order a new one because of
the lengthy process and the amount of paperwork he would have had to do for.
So he kept the ring all the time till he gave all his stuff his daughter shortly before he died.

His name must have been difficult for some people to understand or his handwriting was difficult to decipher as there is also a misspelling of his name in one of the DALs.

Last edited by morpheus!; 03/08/2022 08:51 PM.
Gaspare #354006 03/08/2022 09:25 PM
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Pictures!!!!!

Tanker #354007 03/08/2022 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tanker
Pictures!!!!!
+++1

Gaspare #354011 03/09/2022 11:01 AM
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Hi gents,
people who know me know, that I'm not a big fan of posting pictures on the internet of rings that are currently in my collection, especially not the names.
The few I show rings to in detail are good fellow collectors who I have known and trusted for a long time.
Some of these are rings/convolutes(like the one with the spelling mistake) that have never been on the market or shown anywhere before and as long as they are in my collection I want them to stay that way.
I hope you understand that and don't be mad at me for that.

Chris

Last edited by morpheus!; 03/09/2022 11:03 AM.
Gaspare #354018 03/09/2022 02:22 PM
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Not posting pics doesn't do anything for the thread. Without seeings pics, you would have probably been better offto skip the post. Not mad, just confused why a person would make a post then not post a picture.

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Gaspare #354020 03/09/2022 03:44 PM
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Hello tanker,
I was only replying to Dave's post and saying that it must have taken a lot of paperwork and time to get a new ring and not just fill out a form print.
Also, the wearer I wrote about would have had to send their ring back before they could get a new one.

I didn't want to have an opinion on my ring, I only wanted to inform
you what the old lady told me about and that it wasn't so easy to get a new one.

Chris

Gaspare #354021 03/09/2022 03:50 PM
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Chris
I understand you did not want an opinion, but any forum is only as good as the information provided. We like to see pictures of rings/history. Despite what happens on other forums, this is a good forum with very knowledgeable folks. We do not set out to discredit a ring (or other items) but would enjoy seeing the ring.

Gaspare #354022 03/09/2022 03:58 PM
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I agree with Chris. He answered a question for us but wants to keep his collection private. His choice.

Dave #354023 03/09/2022 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave
I agree with Chris. He answered a question for us but wants to keep his collection private. His choice.
It would be nice to see though. I respect his decision but when you open with with a post like that (stating you have a ring with an anomaly), wouldn't you like to see it?

Tanker #354024 03/09/2022 04:51 PM
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I agree it would be nice to see, though I also understand why someone would choose to keep their collection private. I have seen examples of people who will steal pictures from forums like these, and post them on sites like ebay or facebook store and attempt to scam people. I believe that he was only trying to comment on the process of acquiring a new ring, and was providing context as to why he had the information he had. Dont feel any pressure to post Morpheus!

Gaspare #354025 03/09/2022 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarcasmos
I found out that the ring was originally sold by Kai Winkler in 2009, by itself, and not part of any grouping, for just under 3500 Euro, and was not named to Werner Best. However, the ring resurfaced in 2016 when Hermann Historica auctioned off the ring, now suddenly together with this grouping and named to Werner Best for significantly more than the original 3500.

Hello Sarcasmos, just to make it clear, when you do look at the certain thread at WAF it has been "daggers" wink with his files who did find out (did know) the facts about from where this Best ring did come and the certain accoutrement. see screenshot.

Also the comparisons of the fake Eckle ring wih an original 44´ ring had been done by "daggers" wink.
Regards,

Best-WAF-daggers.JPG (60.58 KB, 109 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #354026 03/09/2022 05:42 PM
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I am aware of that, when I said what I said earlier I was not trying to take credit for what was done, I was only trying to simplify the story of the Best ring. I can understand how what I said earlier would come off as "I was the one who did it all", though that was not at all my intent. I was the one who started the thread as a friend had asked me about the ring, but I thought it was suspicious that such an early and high ranking member of the SS would receive his ring so late, and thus I dug through the DALs to find that Best had gotten his ring in the early '30s. Following this discovery I posted about the ring on the WAF as a warning to other collectors, and daggers made his post about the ring which I saw and took note of. What I meant with "I found out that Kai Winkler sold the ring" was not "I discovered all this by myself" but rather I meant "I found out via comments from the WAF" Sorry for the confusion!

Best regards,
Sarcasmos

Gaspare #354029 03/09/2022 08:10 PM
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Hello Sarcasmos, ok., understood.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Gaspare #354031 03/09/2022 10:30 PM
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Interesting thread about the reissue rings , I wonder on valuation, how would a reissue ring be valued against the original issue ring seeing that reissue rings are scarce,

The klingsporn ring is interesting,

"Klingsporn was born in Berlin in 1903. From 1928 he lived in Osthofen, where he joined the NSDAP and the SS in 1929. 1924 to 1926 he had the KPDbelongs. The trained mechanic had been unemployed since November 1929. Klingsporn, known to his political opponents as a very "brutal SS man", according to his own statements, was actively involved in the Nazi riots against the local Social Democrats before 1933. In 1933 he was a security guard in Osthofen. Witnesses recognized him as a member of the "Einpeitscherkommando", which abused Jews and particularly hated political opponents in Camp II. However, he himself denied this in his tribunal proceedings in 1949; it could not be proven to him beyond a doubt. In 1940 he was drafted into the Waffen-SS and was a member of the guards at the SS special camp/KZ Hinzert until April 1941. As a member of the Waffen SS, he took part in World War II, ultimately with the rank of Hauptscharführer."

Last edited by The_Collector; 03/09/2022 10:36 PM.
Gaspare #354032 03/09/2022 10:42 PM
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Chris,,of course the choice is yours... Many years ago there was some very good copies being shown by a Japanese member. Not sure IF they were made there or[?]...OK. anyway

We've had other members around that time that had good HRs some with infamous personalities names etc.

- My position was,,,,,Since the copies were very good [for the time] the best thing to do would be to list and show the name to safe guard against counterfeiting!
Why would that work you might ask? -
Lets say a counterfeiter claims to have a infamous named H.R. He explains its in bad shape, extreme wear, and ground dug,,,those here proclaim it authentic. . - Some time passes and another member says 'hey look at this HR my uncle brought home from the war'. It is proclaimed authentic! Then he posts more photos of the ring and guess what? its the same name and date!. - Who has the real HR? Many will say the counterfeit HR because it was shown years before,and, those in the know say its real.
In reality it is the 2nd HR brought home by the vet that is authentic... again,Just my point of view...

There is a member that still posts here and might want to relate his experience.


and guys,,,don't worry who found out what or where. We are all in this hobby together and the best information comes with collaboration! [you can always add 'Photos Credit': which is nice if they're not yours and your sure ownership]...

Last edited by Gaspare; 03/09/2022 10:54 PM.
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Gaspare #354033 03/10/2022 12:02 AM
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I agree with Gaspare. Thanks to his confidence and knowledge that is why I posted mine. Ron

Gaspare #354034 03/10/2022 04:00 PM
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Chris' choice ... and I think he's right.

Show that there are mistakes and Easter Europe might use it as an example for a new round of superfakes.

Dave

Gaspare #354035 03/10/2022 06:15 PM
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Easter Europe your names on the rings are not needed, there is enough photographic material published and all my customers generally order their names ))))
Secondly, the engraving of the original rings is different from mine, and those who keep their eyes open even a little will see it.
And yet they are the best replicas, many people like to wear them, they are beautiful in design
I do not strive to engrave one to one and it is just very difficult, because the engraving is like a highlight, it is individual, it is difficult to fake it, my replicas are not so expensive, so that I would do a high-quality engraving, I am not in a hurry to do it, because that I want the copies to be recognizable and different from the originals.


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