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Dear Martin,

Thanks for your reaction, don't worry i am not a "troll" as you mentioned before. normally i am not so active on the forum but now i'll like to "jump in" if there is some special to react on. and thanks for wishing me the best!

Kind regards,

Peter van der Burg
Holland

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Jryesmar. Forget these cheapskates.. I have, IN CASH!!!! 10 TRILLION dollars to offer.(that's a ten with twelve zeros!!!} Make your mind up!!

By the way..I tried to find out where you were from by entering 'rv suffix' on google and got this reply...
The –rV suffix interacts in an interesting way with the temporal
structures of multi-verb constructions. Overlapping events license –rV
while non-overlapping events do not. This is formally stated as a
constraint on semantic combination constraining the suffix to affix only
to multi-verb constructions with unbounded temporal time span.
I also introduce a representation of tone in the HPSG analysis to
account for the interaction between tense, tone, inflection and
argument selection.
Is this anywhere near where you live?


If you want to criticise someone first walk a mile in their shoes. Then, when they come after you, you'll be a mile ahead and they'll be barefoot.
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Dear Peter

Welcome aboad! I also love the Dutch people as you are all so helpful and friendly when I am there on my Holidays.

looks like a dealer got it today anyhows.

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Sepp,

I have no doubt that the piece is real, and I have examined a few original specimens, together with a greater quantity of the fake examples.

The feature on the scabbard panelling is the easiest and fastest to check; followed by some visible characteristics concerning the stippling. These are just details that I noted and relate to when checking such an item. Some of the other prominent researchers have their own favorite indicators to look for.

The structure of the actual dagger itself has less obvious distinguishing features, principally because the piece was hand-finished. As a result, there are minute differences between the originals, all due to the artisan workmanship involved. However, there are also some constant features portrayed on the upper and lower guards, which are created by the permanent features inherent in the master pattern - from which these portions are created.

Although the photographs of the piece were insufficient to reveal the precise details that I would look for, the colour of the gold plating is rather persuasive. It has a "rose pink" look about it, and seems to equate to something approximating 14 caret gold. This has a pinkish appearance as it is alloyed with copper. I associate this colour with the "production" pieces of the FHH - as all original examples I have seen have had this appearance. (The collar patches of the FHH uniform also have deep pink background.)

I hope that my comment is interesting and informative to everybody - particularly to the owner of the dagger, who may not have fully realised just what it is that is in his possession.

Frederick J. Stephens

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Thanks Fred,
That is very interesting to know, great information to share with those that haven't had the opportunity to inspect such rare beasts.

Mongo,
Love the Neitherlands and their Center Parks. Great for the family and have visited all of them.

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quote:
Originally posted by Paul:
........,.and BOY am I jealous,most of us can only dream of having this amount of disposable income, or am i the only guy here shopping on a budget??????????
Congrats to vendor and to purchaser whoever you may be. Any current owners care to post some pics of this beast?

paul


Mann <---[also shops on a budget.) Wink
,,it would be nice to see closeups.
Congrats to the owner.
Cheers


In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944



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Bet this one disappears in the wind as well. Remember the Amann dagger a few years back. Hehe, we didn't even get to keep pictures of that one on here.

I've only seen two in person and that was 7 years ago but it sure looks nice to me. Hope we get to learn more about what happens to this one.

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Is it true that FHH daggers are substandard in quality to other TR Political daggers? ie. materials and construction?

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FHH Dagger was the biggest disappointment of my collecting life when I first handled one in person. NO quality, NOT Impressive and not in my collection for the money. So I leave these for the rest of the collectors.
Ron Weinand


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Concerning rareness: Because of understandable Big Grin reasons I do research on these FHh daggers for a long time.
My facts are: The highest by me known serialnumber of a dagger is 51 which corresponds with the said number of around 50 daggers manufactured.
Due to several features you can distinguish at least MOST FHH daggers and if you do research you can see the one or the other steadily changing owners. E.g. the "McCarthy" dagger with it´s originally not belonging together hangers went by several times.
I was aware of 12 sure originals (duty daggers) until last year. Including two which for sure never have seen collector´s market. Last year autumn a for me new one did appear. Now this dagger here is also a new one which makes (for me) a total of 14 known originals. If you add let´s say 3 or 4 we do not know..... makes around 18 existing ones around the world.
Not a very high number I would think Cool .
And only about 40-50% of the known daggers have hangers with them.
As said before, during the last years several from the suddenly available ones went to russia, imo gone/lost forever or at least for a long time for the western market.

Concerning the prices: The one from autumn last year (one of those with cracked bakelit grips) was offered - with hangers - for 60000(!) EUROS and was sold (I was personal wittness) for 54000 EUROS (!!!!!).
Craig did offer a said "very good" fake ("not so good" if you have the real thing and you know what to look for Wink ) for 7000 USD od it was sold within a short time.

Concerning originallity: Mr. Stephens is a true oldtimer on these exclusive daggers and he KNOWS what he writes about these daggers. BUT the fakers try hard to get all these known features to fake such a X0.000 $$$$ gem. And therefore I have seen some features on sure fakes very very improved.
The best for detecting a fake is when you have hold an original one in your own hands. You will never forget it and the whole, detailed impression imo cannot be faked.

Concerning variants: There are the "common" ones with wooden or bakelit grip. It is unknown why these material was changed because I know a one digit dagger with wooden grip, a dagger in the 1X range with bakelit grip and later ones (higher numbers) again with wooden grips.
There are awardes ones (Göring and an italian general) with white grips. There is an awarded, totally handmade dagger with wooden grip for LUTZE (this was NO duty dagger but an awarded dagger!). Earlier my thoughts were that all the awarded daggers (beside the Lutze one) had white grips. But then I came over perid photographs where italian officers (beside the general with the white gripped dagger) did wear also FHH daggers but with brown grip. So my personal -in no way prooved - theory is that these awarded daggers had the bakelit grips and those worn by the leaders of the FHH and the leaders of the OSAF had wooden grips. But as said, no proof.

Concerning substandard: For most collectors who don´t have one (and wish to own one) it is "substandard", for most who own one it is a superior gem. From this point of view it is more "substandard" than gem Roll Eyes Fact is that it is made of leightweight metal which is not easy to handle and casting is difficult especially to gain fine details (think of the custom daggers). But this modern leightweight metal was the nonplusultra at these times, a modern metal and leightweight which made it possible to create such a large (long) dagger which still could be worn.

And finally: it´s a CASBERG design.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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I like them a lot but pound for pound at that kind of money I would probably go for a nice Damascus Honor dagger or some of the old rare black stuff. Razz

Thanks for the interesting info Wotan

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Fred,
Thank You for your quick and informative response.

Also Thanks to Wotan for all the info,very interesting.Wotan...where was the serial number stamped? Do you know what number this FHH
dagger was?

I know that this would never be done but,I would like to see a Dagger forum on GDC for "FAKES"
Having Fred being the Moderator.Like a Up to date Reproduction? Recognition! But I guess the Fakers would have a field day with it.

Ron says they were: "Not Impressive,and No Quality" But Fred says on page 54 of his book they had High Detail of workmanship! Which is it
High Detail...or No Quality??? Maybe the one you handled Ron was a fake??

Regards, Sepp

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One of the most interesting threads lately..

Thank you all !!!!


Lou Bell
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Substandard: I don't own an RZM SA, Aluminum 1st Luft, All Aluminum Custom's, Aluminum Army or any other "late manufactured" Daggers (including my favorite NPEA Styles). Just my preference, so you can see how I feel about the FHH. I would, however, own Lutz's FHH, as I have held it and it is impressive. Its not the money as I could buy one anytime, its the substandard workmanship and materials IMO.
Ron Weinand


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Please buy me one uncle Ron Smile

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Price is a function of supply and demand. Like 'em or not they are priced right as is seen but the willingness of people to step up and the number of hits on this thread in a couple days. Someone is interested. Big Grin

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I've been lucky enough to have had three in my hands. Same with SS M33 Damascus Honor Daggers and 4 SA 33/36 Honor or high leader daggers.

The FHH were all plastic grip versions and I found them disappointing. Very lightweight and with a plain blade. Not nearly as impressive as the SA/SS Honor Daggers

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you cannot compare honor daggers with a service dagger what the FHH dagger is .
The FHH dagger is the rarest serial produced dagger for duty and to be worn as such with the uniform.

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@ Sepp: naturally I do know where a serial number is set but -please- understand that I will keep it discret.
I personally could observe that a lot of known features for detecting a fake some time after becoming published were considered by the fakers. This was also the case with the feature (concerning the scabbard) mentioned by Mr. Stephens. So I personally would not publish any original versus fake features. But I would be willing to do a statement about any shown dagger.

@ philippe: Well said!!!

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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It is true to say that many collectors are surprised about the physical construction of the FHH dagger. There seems to be a general consensus that the quality of the piece is not of the higher standard as might be expected for such a rare and elite dagger, however, there is a probable reason for this.

It has been correctly pointed out (by Philippe) that these pieces are not presentation items, they are a regular Service Dress item. They were to be worn on everyday duty by senior ranks within the Feldherrnhalle. As such, I believe that these items were purchased by the eligible FHH member, in just the same way that he would be responsible for paying for his own uniform. It became a matter of economics that these daggers needed to be produced at an affordable price. Because of the known limited quantity of them that would be finally required, it became a determining factor concerning how much could be spent in tooling up for the production. That limitation reflected itself in final quality and appearance of the item.

To make an analogy, we have all seen fine examples of the Army Dagger, or Luftwaffe Model 1937, which are far superior in quality to the FHH dagger, or say the Government Officials dagger. The reason for this is simply the vast volume of such pieces that would be required – it would run into hundreds of thousands. With such a market the manufacturer could afford to invest in high quality tooling and dies, because it comes down to a fractional cost of each produced item.

With a limited production run of around 50 unique form daggers, the proportional cost of originating them becomes rather high on a unit basis. So some sacrifices have to be made somewhere, to keep the item within an acceptable budget.

The most expensive part of the FHH dagger is the scabbard, because the shell of the body is pressed in a die. I have wondered for a long time why it was permitted to produce the pieces with the flaw in the panel line. My guess is – and this is purely speculation – that it was a combination of time and cost. The flaw is there, but it is not really noticeable unless you know to look for it. It certainly is not glaringly obvious in the normal course of wear. The time factor is also important, as I believe that the first time the dagger was seen in wear was during Italian General Russo’s official visit to Berlin, July, 1938; and then later the same month when Lutze led an entourage on a return visit to Rome.

The concept that the need to have the daggers completed for wear in time for these official events, may have over-ridden any opportunity to have the scabbard die re-made. It is a possibility that cannot be dismissed, but as I say, it is speculation.

On the subject concerning how much information should be revealed about the fine details daggers, especially rare ones, I acknowledge and respect Wotan’s reservations about this. I am fully aware of the criticisms levelled at me, that some of my revelations make it easier for fakers to correct their work. There may be some argument to support this, but I have another point of view, and it is as follows:

I do not believe that there should be a cartel of knowledge, held by few and denied to many, because the less information a collector has, then the easier it is for the faker to pass his wares. It is my concept that the more information that is known about items, then the harder it is for the faker to make his product – because it means that he has to put more effort and skill into producing the item. The knowledge is only one part of the equation. The skill to produce the artifact is also required, and the higher the skill level the more it costs in time and money. Faker’s do not like that – it eats into the profits, they are looking for easy money.

So my final comment is that I would far sooner equip the collector with as much information as possible, rather than withhold it from them, and potentially leave them at the mercy of some unscrupulous people.

Frederick J. Stephens

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I agree with F.J.S.that it is in our mutual interest to share all the information on these subjects.
As owner of such a dagger I realy cannot understand all those talks about the bad finish , crude materials, lack of details etc...
The conception and design of that piece is fantastic; holding it in your hands , you understand the importance of it as it reflects realy the high rank of the wearer .
The dimensions are huge comparing to any other dagger at that time ( I do not speak about the 55 cm DLV one from 5 years before )and also the details and workmanship on the piece are nice.
As Wotan said before; the fact that the piece is realy light , is more a positive thing than a desadvantage...and it reflects exactly the crafts of daggermaking at that time.

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Well said Fred and great to see you posting here again Phillipe do I understand from your last post you have a FHH dagger if so would you be kind enough to share?

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I couldn't agree more with FJS' sentiment, if not for the forensic details shared by the likes of FJS, TJ, TW and RW as authors on the subject, this entire field of collecting would be clouded with ignorance and dagger folklore. I for one hope Reproduction? Recognition! 3 is still on the table...

Red

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quote:
“......however, there is a probable reason for this ...... It became a matter of economics that these daggers needed to be produced at an affordable price. Because of the known limited quantity of them that would be finally required, it became a determining factor concerning how much could be spent in tooling up for the production. That limitation reflected itself in final quality and appearance of the item. ...... With a limited production run of around 50 unique form daggers, the proportional cost of originating them becomes rather high on a unit basis. So some sacrifices have to be made somewhere, to keep the item within an acceptable budget. ...... The most expensive part of the FHH dagger is the scabbard, because the shell of the body is pressed in a die. I have wondered for a long time why it was permitted to produce the pieces with the flaw in the panel line. My guess is – and this is purely speculation – that it was a combination of time and cost."

Mr. Stephen’s observations are right on the money. The time and effort for a tool and die maker to make by hand a good set of dies is a lot more than that needed to make a few models for casting the handle parts. With the rest being more or less 'off the shelf'. If there was a (relatively minor) flaw, was it cost effective to scrap the old die set and start all over?? Apparently not. FP

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At the time the flaw may not even have been noticed just like the SS/SA handle eagle swaztika flaw that was discussed earlier this week

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@ Mr Stephens concerning "I am fully aware of the criticisms levelled at me," :
I highly respect your knowledge and with "R? R!" you have made a serious and valuable contribution for our hobby. In no way I am authorized or want to criticize you. On the contrary, I can say that the facts on the FHH dagger in your book -I got one exemplare with a personal dedication from you- (and the assistance of an old, advanced regional collector who owns an original FHH dagger since the early 50ies) initially let me think of buying such a dagger myself which I finally did. Thank you for that!
At these early times, over decades, fakers faked daggers simply after their overall appearance.
Imo it was easy to know speciasl features and right to spread them to avoid fakes.
Recently facts concerning reproductions have changed drastically. Fakers obviously have bought original daggers and do fake them in every detail. Believe me, the fakes are made at highest level. E.g. TN leaders, RLB (all) daggers, HJ leaders, NSKK chained and some others are faked in such a convincing way that even oldtimers of the hobby and best experienced collectors and dealers (I am a personal witness of such incidents) were/are fooled...
Such incidents and only such incidents led me to my decision (and I am not very happy with it but I think it is the only way) not publishing special knowledge any more but help collectors generally on their special items they are interested in.
My english is not the best, I hope it is understandable what I wanted to express.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Hello Wotan,

Thank you for your response, and kind comments. Please be assured that I take your view concerning the restraining of certain information as a perfectly legitimate point of view, and in no way a criticism of me. I, and many others, just happen to hold a different perception concerning information, but it doesn’t mean that we are in opposition to any other view. I believe that we all want to help the collector as much as possible.

Yes, you are correct about the new generations of production reproductions. There are some extremely impressive pieces being produced, and clearly they are the result of high investment, and professional workmanship. Some of the notable concerns in Solingen are producing “parts” to order – to them it is just business. If the customer is prepared to place the right size of order, then they will produce it. What the customer does to assemble and finish the parts off doesn’t really concern the original manufacturer of the parts. The finished quality of the final product is starting to become really challenging.

To return to the original theme of this thread – the FHH – I am submitting an attachment showing a particularly notable Feldherrnhalle dagger; this being the one presented to SA Stabchef Viktor Lutze, December, 1937. This photograph was taken in about 1968, when the dagger was in the possession of the late Eric Campion. He also had a number of other Lutze-related artefacts, which we assembled around the dagger to make a display for photographing. I hope that the readers of this thread may enjoy viewing this image from the past.

Frederick J. Stephens

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by *Adam*:
Bet this one disappears in the wind as well. Remember the Amann dagger a few years back. Hehe, we didn't even get to keep pictures of that one on here.

Concerning the Amann dagger: See

http://www.craiggottlieb.com/d...+Dagger+to+Max+Amann

and I have additional ones if required Wink

Mr. Stephens, thank you for this impressive, additional picture, I think it was published by Angilia in one of his books?

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Thank you for the response Wotan. Now that is certainly a beautiful one of kind dagger. That is not to say less of the Feldherrnhalle pieces which are beautiful in their own right. I have to personally disagree with those who say they have a cheap feeling. Yes the two that I held were light weight but certainly didn't appear cheap. Not in the order of a RZM SA or anything. Though they certainly don't feel like a early SS/SA. I'd love to own a FHH they are special for a multitude of other reasons.

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HI everyone,Could these Half scabbard shells be real???????
nats

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This pic is much to blurry to do a concrete, serious statement but one special feature let me tend to think that they are not original ones. As said, no serious statement.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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I certainly recall seeing a similar pair of scabbard pressings at the Dortmund Waffenborse, circa 1994. I particularly recall that they had the flanged lip projecting from the outside edge of the scabbard - the excess from the pressing which would be sheared off when the two halves were fused together. I also noticed that the stippling of the scabbard did not match the distinct patterning that I have noticed on the (believed) originals.

It was my impression that remnants such as these were left over from the highly professional copies which were produced in the late-1970s. These were the best copies that I recall, a lot of expense and effort had gone into creating them; and even today they sell for around $4000-$5000 as high quality replicas.

FJS

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No way I could be getting $30k for this one ?

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Interesting topic..I have held a Feldherrnhalle dagger that once belonged to an Italian general.It was given to a Canadian soldier by the family of the General for work he had done for them when billeted in the families home .

It resides in a collection in Toronto.

**Just a friendly reminder to not turn threads into a buying and selling forum. We already have one for that.

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Originally Posted By: Doug Kenwright
Interesting topic..I have held a Feldherrnhalle dagger that once belonged to an Italian general.It was given to a Canadian soldier by the family of the General for work he had done for them when billeted in the families home .

It resides in a collection in Toronto.

**Just a friendly reminder to not turn threads into a buying and selling forum. We already have one for that.


Doug.

Please, can you tell name of Italian General who belonged FHH dagger.

It will be very interesting.

Best regards Den.
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Generale Russo if i remember well...the short man at the right side of Goering

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The Russo presentation was not the "standard" aluminium model, very light in weight - v - its bulk. The Russo piece was much heavier, the hilt parts being silvered over a heavier base metal.
This cased dagger surfaced in the UK in the late 1970's and was sold on to a US collector, changing hands a couple of times. When in the collection of the late Bob Waitts it was displayed at the Max Show and I had the opportunity to have it in hand.
Interestingly, the veteran who originaly sold the dagger said that he also had the cased "suspenders" (hangers) for the dagger "somewhere"; he never returned to the buyer's shop.
Here is a picture of three FHH, when in the late Robert Waitts collection. The silver Russo piece is in the centre flanked by two standard FHH, one with wood grip the other bakelite.

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Great display, thank you for showing these. I suspect I will never see one in person.

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I should also have mentioned that the Russo presentation FHH has a personalised damascus blade.

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Incredible! many thanks for showing this picture Barry


Regards Sean
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