UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Hammesfahr eteching

Just a simple question can You show me pictures of Hammesfahr SS 1933 (earlyone) eteching. All pics are welcome. I just want to check something. Later I will explain what is up.

Gottlieb

I mean motto no maker markings....

Here is one of mine.

I guess i know what are you looking for

Gerd

IM CURIOUS AS TO WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR????

Hammesfahr used a couple of different etches which could have pointed to sub-contracting to an outside source. Here is another different etch style that is seen on their SS M33's.

That is what I wanted to hear. Wonder why all reference books points out only one kind of the eteching calling it TEXTBOOK. This fools a little and sometimes makes suspicious good daggers...

Thanx a lot
Gottlieb

It's aways difficult to make hard and fast rules with this stuff.

Do NOT believe any description proclaiming that something is "TEXTBOOK". There is no such thing - because there are too many authentic variations with the originals (and they are recognised by other collectors).

This is a well-known euphemism applied when someone attempting to say (and invariably - sell) that what they have to offer is the perfect and classic example of the desired object - and therefore that all other specimens are sub-standard or faked.

CAVEAT EMPTOR!

FJS

unbeliveable - so if almost all collectors knows that Hammersfahr used a couple of different etches why books shows only one ?? I have found at least three SS G. Hammersfahr daggers offered right now with eteching like JR shows. All reference shows only first two like kreta1961 and hdmarley shows ....

Less experienced collectors might be a little bit fooled in this situation...

@Gottlieb,
that's what i thought,when you asked for the etching.
I own two early Hammesfahr both with the same motto as above.

Gerd

I also used to have one like Your and looks like I will have one soon with this un-TEXTBOOK .

@ JR,

the motto you've shown is also close to herder.

I have said here many times that I do not believe that daggers can be identified or rejected solely by their motto etch.

As this thread points out, one maker can have used two (or more?) etches that vary only in minor detail.

Let me add another dimension: Who actually added the motto and trademark to the almost finished blade? Solingen had a highly developed and specialized series of craftsmen who each did one of a succession of steps as sub contractors. As I understand it, the larger concerns such as Eickhorn did more parts in-house while the smaller makers were in reality not much more than final assemblers.

Dave

Dave-
What is your opinion - can the daggers be rejected solely by small differences of the logo etch? Could it be that sub contractors had their own patterns for motto and logo etch?

I'm, not aware of any definitive study on motto etches or maker marks. A few authors have touched on it as did TW in his SS reference, but it is by no means conclusive. The process of preparing the artwork, creating the templates and the etching was a complex task handled by specific craftsmen. The issue is compounded by "house" etches vs. sub-contractors, so there are no easy answers IMO, but from what I've learned there are often several patterns that are consistent with particular makers, but also many that are shared... much to still learn here...

Red

The real limitation is assembling enough daggers by the same manufacturer for a valid comparison. How many would that be? 40? 50? 100? This might be possible with Klass or Eickhorn or Hammesfahr, but not Jacobs or K&M or Gembruch or EP&S. Pictures are a poor second to looking at the real thing.

The blade etch discussion on pgs 689-708 of TW's book probably grew out of a session we had when I hauled my collection up to him. He had a lot of SS daggers in stock and more that were sent to him to be photographed, plus mine. We were hoping to ID chained SS makers and the 120/34 maker by comparing blade etches and other characteristics. We never really got anywhere as there were as many differences as points in common.

As Red says above, lots to be learned

Dave

Thanks, I do have the same opinion.
...much to still learn here...
Gottlieb: you asked for pictures of an early one and alrady have got them. And here is a late RZM-version of the same producer I had in my collection.

Sokol I have asked for early etching because I have bought an early Hammesfahr with no "textbook" motto shape. Now I know what I wanted to know. By the way I used to have one like Yours - quality far away from early one 33 SS. Anyway thanx for Your input...

I realize your inquiry has been addressed Gottlieb, but this thread made me curious about my own example.

The etching on my '33 Hammesfahr. If I'm not mistaken, it appears to be the less common of the two variants. Someone mentioned this is more similar to the Herder motto?

This pattern is probably the most common, it is seen on Herder, Klaas and Eickhorn 2nd pattern to name the big makers. There are sometimes minute differences though...

Red

So, more common in general, but less common on Hammesfahr blades?

Agree that the distinctions are subtle, but they are nevertheless noticeable. Seen specifically in the line-work of the Capital letters.

I came across Hammesfahrs with both type of motto etchings. They can be found on different makers (maybe we should call them "generic type A" and "generic type B"). And the books? Just not complete.
I've noticed different motto styles on SA's as well, especially big makers (E.P.&S., Eickhorn).

Maybe someone should make a reference gallery here on GD.com with all kinds of etchings known on original examples selected by makers ?

To help the fakers?

this would not help the fakers because to make correct etching faker would need dimensions from original blade.

High end fakers yes, but vast majotity of fakers don't give a damn, because their "target" never had an original SS dagger in hand. How can the potential victims compare the sizes?
The reference is not a bad idea in itself but the pictures should be taken at some angle - still good enough for the good guys, but hard to use for the bad guys.

I agree no direct shoots !!! I have started downloading etchings of different makers just for myself because as You have mentioned books are not complete....