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#351469 08/25/2021 04:59 AM
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Gaspare Offline OP
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*Topic and photo credit - The German Military Fundforum.


Usually don't like to do this but this is worth the look!

https://www.militaria-fundforum.de/...1-bitte-um-eure-hilfe-bei-totenkopfring/

01_Schädel_B.jpg (50.35 KB, 206 downloads)
03_H-Kreuz_B.jpg (55.96 KB, 206 downloads)
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well,,either one of the greatest fakes or,,,, a authentic with red eyes!

Now, no telling when this was done,, and serious doubt it was done wartime.. My advice,,is to leave it 'as is'.

So guys,,,what you think?!

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I like it !!!

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I agree with you Gaspare.
Of course it looks nice, but I don't think a modification of a such kind of "award" could have been permitted. Adding different elements to the ring would have changed its original esoteric and philosophical meanings, so would have changed the very nature of the ring.
No reason to have made it wartime.

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This could have been done at that time, since the ring was found, as I understand it, in Germany, then hardly anyone could be puzzled by the installation of stones in the skull after the war, when all symbolism became banned and everything that resembled the SS and the installation of stones does not violate the esoteric meaning runes, we know rings with inserted stones.
So there is no reason to doubt this instance.

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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
This could have been done at that time, since the ring was found, as I understand it, in Germany, then hardly anyone could be puzzled by the installation of stones in the skull after the war, when all symbolism became banned and everything that resembled the SS.

I am very sorry, but your is only your opinion that has no evidences.
No one TK ring with stones can be proven to be 100% original wartime. If you have unquestionable proofs, please share them.
What you say about the "SS symbolism" after the war is simply an old story and no one believes it anymore. Badge and medals makers still produces SS badges and medals until the end of '60, just to mention an example. And to fix a couple of stones on a ring is not a political action, is simply a work and every jeweller would have made it in '50, in '60 or in '90. Who cares if a ring has a swaz on it?

Originally Posted by Evgeniy
...and the installation of stones does not violate the esoteric meaning runes, we know rings with inserted stones.
So there is no reason to doubt this instance.

YES, ABSOLUTELY YES, inserting stones in the complexity of the esoteric-alchemical-phylosophical meanings of the ring would have compromised everything (and this is not my thought, but is very clear when you make deep studies on the runic and ring composition meanings - 99.9% of collectors still don't know which runes are on TK rings and why, so how can they understand what it really is? In the upcoming book there will be 40 pages to explain the ring meanings... Not 1 or 2). Furthermore I don't think anyone would have messed up a such impoortant award, considering its sacredness. It is like to receive a Blood Order or a Coburg Badge and put some stones on it, just to give it a better appearance.

Show me I'm wrong, with real evidences, no personal speculation or fantasy statements as we have already seen for the last 30 years, and I'll believe you. I think many would love to see real proofs about rings with stones.

PS: below just one page from the chapter of 40 pages... As I always said: we knew almost nothing about these rings.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 08/25/2021 01:47 PM.
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Your categoricalness, in denying that they could not have been installed during the war, also does not have any confirmation, I also consider it a fiction that in 60-70-80-90 or even now any jeweler will undertake a similar order to insert stones, I talked about the severity of the laws in Germany and Austria, and even about the slightest manifestations of the subject of SS and interest in the history of this organization.
I think that you are too idealizing the attitude of the owners of the rings (awarded) towards them. I believe that everything was simpler in this regard, as we say, the severity of the laws is compensated by their non-execution, in the history of the Reich there were many orders and decrees, but not all of them were observed and carried out, with the ring the same.

Regarding the meaning of the runes - all this will be just your speculation, only the author could tell what he put there, in the symbolism of the figures and the runes themselves, and everything else will be assumptions

Last edited by Evgeniy; 08/25/2021 02:17 PM.
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So, do you have any real proof? The answer is simple: YES (and so you should show them) or NOT (and the discussion ends).

If something has no historical proofs it simply remains a speculation, and no one should believe it. No proofs = only bla bla. As usual.

When you ask for proofs the discussion always turns into an endless river of useless words.


PS: About what you consider a "fiction" there were jewellers that made "nazi" and SS rings, in '60 as in '70 as in '80. This is well known, not a "fiction" as you say. For example reunions of old comrades were full of "nazi" gadgets.

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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
Regarding the meaning of the runes - all this will be just your speculation, only the author could tell what he put there, in the symbolism of the figures and the runes themselves, and everything else will be assumptions

It is funny to read your posts.

The study on symbols was exactly made using the author (Wiligut) papers... So it is not "my speculation", but the author himself explanation. Glad you judge something without even know it.

This is the big difference between someone that speculate and someone that need unquestionable evidences. I need evidences to believe and to support my statements.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 08/25/2021 02:33 PM.
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First, Do we know if these eyes are real gems or glass? And second It would be interesting to see how they are fastened to the ring? Thank you.

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My knowledge of rings is small but I have read much about the SS. I think that before May 1945, any SS Mann sporting those stones in his ring would have been on the other side of the barbed wire so fast it would have taken his 'ring' a week to catch up.

We laugh at the mystic B.S. of the SS now, but back in the day ....

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It’s an interesting look for sure. Period skull kantinenrings that actually did have colored stones in the eyes added as an upgrade I’ve always found very attractive.

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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
Regarding the meaning of the runes - all this will be just your speculation, only the author could tell what he put there, in the symbolism of the figures and the runes themselves, and everything else will be assumptions

It is funny to read your posts.

The study on symbols was exactly made using the author (Wiligut) papers... So it is not "my speculation", but the author himself explanation. Glad you judge something without even know it.

This is the big difference between someone that speculate and someone that need unquestionable evidences. I need evidences to believe and to support my statements.



Well, tell us what kind of books you read from the author of the ring, where all this is explained...

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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
Well, tell us what kind of books you read from the author of the ring, where all this is explained...

I asked you proofs and you have no one.

Then you judged something without knowing anything.

Now, that you have nothing more to say, you ask where I found info about the runic symbols...

My answer is simple: on December you will have a list of hundreds titles and documents in the bibliography of my book. Then You can check and study all them, as I did in these last 4-5 years. All the book statements are supported by analisys, documents and period evidences. And everyone can check everything by himself. No secrets or invented stories, no opinions or speculations. Just facts.

I always asked myself why all the Honor Rings "experts" have never made a decent research about these rings?

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I did not claim any deep knowledge of the symbolism of the ring, although of course I made out something according to the meanings of both the runes and symbols. The fact that you know everything on this issue, you say, so I ask where you got the information from.
You always say so much that you know about these rings that I am always interested in the sources of your knowledge, if someone asserts, then he can provide evidence. So I ask for proof

"YES, ABSOLUTELY YES, inserting stones in the complexity of the esoteric-alchemical-phylosophical meanings of the ring would have compromised everything" - I didn't know that you were a great runologist )))
You are not only a well-known connoisseur of rings, who until recently on his website sold copies and fantasy under the guise of originals (I remember these stories), but also a well-known runologist

"PS: About what you consider a "fiction" there were jewellers that made "nazi" and SS rings, in '60 as in '70 as in '80. This is well known, not a "fiction" as you say. For example reunions of old comrades were full of "nazi" gadgets." - no need to skip over to another topic, I wrote only about the award rings ss and I know this facts without ur "help" )))



"So, do you have any real proof? The answer is simple: YES (and so you should show them) or NOT (and the discussion ends).

If something has no historical proofs it simply remains a speculation, and no one should believe it. No proofs = only bla bla. As usual.

When you ask for proofs the discussion always turns into an endless river of useless words."

So I asked you - Maybe you have evidence, you always assert so categorically that you probably have evidence that will bring us an undeniable truth. )))

"The study on symbols was exactly made using the author (Wiligut) papers..." - ONE MORE time question, let us to know this super book or books ))))

Last edited by Evgeniy; 08/26/2021 10:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
I did not claim any deep knowledge of the symbolism of the ring, although of course I made out something according to the meanings of both the runes and symbols. The fact that you know everything on this issue, you say, so I ask where you got the information from.

Where did I say I know everything? Please show us, or stop telling lies. Because this is a lie.
I am not an "expert" as you think to be, I honestly know only what these 4-5 years of research showed me.

Originally Posted by Evgeniy
You always say so much that you know about these rings that I am always interested in the sources of your knowledge, if someone asserts, then he can provide evidence. So I ask for proof
Very strange someone like you that write assertions like "we know TK ring had stones", and HAS NO PROOFS, now is asking for proofs... This is very funny!
Anyway again: please show me one post I made, in a discussion thread, where I didn't show evidences or where to find them. I think I am the only one in TK ring field I always posted pictures or period evidences to support what I say. How many have contributed in a decent way?

Originally Posted by Evgeniy
I didn't know that you were a great runologist )))

Again, when you don't know anything, keep your mouth closed, it would be always better. In fact I am not a "runologist", the chapter on the rune meaning was only rewiwed by me, but written by 2 friends of mine, one is a well known author in the field of Third Reich esoterism, and the second studied this field since 30 years. They deserve the merit of the discoveries about the HR runic meanings (they have anm enormous knowledge and it would have been impossible to me to write that chapter).

The best you can do is move a discussion onto something personal, since, talking about Honor Rings with stones turned out to be a total debacle for you. Very sad.

Still waiting for some proofs about your statements. Where are them?

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 08/26/2021 03:54 PM.
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And this is the list (not complete) of the books we used for the researches. Single papers and archive documents are not present.

It would be nice to see what are your reference books...

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Antonio has done his homework and research.. The info on the runes are in the book but are not from his personally looking at the credits. The info is from his research....

Evgeniy on the other hand is correct also in his opinion.... It all comes down to this though.. Is it possible a period jeweler to have installed the eyes? well,,,yes.. BUT,,is it probable?... Possible,,probable...........

My opinion is period jewelers wouldn't want to even resize a HR let alone add something to it...

I too like Mikee wonder what those eyes are! Glass? ,Garrnet?[no] , Ruby? As on the Fundforum my advice to the owner is,,,leave it be as is...

Last edited by Gaspare; 08/26/2021 05:17 PM.
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I think you are correct again Gasare.

Yes, it was possible, no questions on it, but who really wanted to modify a Himmler award that was the most important religious, mistical and esoteric symbol of the SS?

Who could have been so idiot? Who would have taken the risk? And for what? Just to see an officer saying: "my skull is cool!"?

IMO not believable. As Dave said, the barbed wire was a fast choice in those days...

Anyway I am always open to change my mind in front of a period evidence.

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Most definitely not a period alteration IMO. If I had to speculate, which as Antonio said is only "blah blah", I would say the modification was likely done post war by a collector.

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Few more shots:

12_Naht.jpg (81.58 KB, 125 downloads)
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Still dont saw - "The study on symbols was exactly made using the author (Wiligut) papers..." - ONE MORE time question, let us to know this super book or books ))))

About original SSHR with diamonds - we are can see examples in Gottleb's book and simple examples here, that was showed
Runology is not a science, what you and your friends have studied there are just assumptions and conjectures, from tabloid newspapers or books of a similar level, all these are fantasies that, as a rule, invented themselves and believed in them themselves)))
My arguments on the stones are stated above, if you haven't learned to read - not my problem ))))

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Originally Posted by Evgeniy
Still dont saw - "The study on symbols was exactly made using the author (Wiligut) papers..." - ONE MORE time question, let us to know this super book or books ))))
If you don't know Wiligut wrote a lot, and you never saw anything wrote from Wiligut, and you don't know anything, this is not my problem. This is only your ignorance. And you showed many in your words.

Originally Posted by Evgeniy
About original SSHR with diamonds - we are can see examples in Gottleb's book and simple examples here, that was showed
Again, I think you really have no idea of what you say. I quote Gottlieb word from his book: "The ring was allegedly acquired directly from the family by a well known dealer. [...] it is not possible to say this (pre 1945 installation) with certainty, as old stones could have been usd by a subsequent owner to enhance his ring".

Again when Gottlieb speks about stones on TK rings: "It is my peronal opinion..."

Is this the best of your evidences? I didn't know Craig opinions were period evidences!

Your statement is ridiculous. Laughable.

Originally Posted by Evgeniy
Runology is not a science, what you and your friends have studied there are just assumptions and conjectures, from tabloid newspapers or books of a similar level, all these are fantasies that, as a rule, invented themselves and believed in them themselves)))

You have a so huge knowledge that you even know what you have not yet read! How can you judge something without knowing anything about it? You are like God!

Easy to explain: if Wiligut wrote a symbol and explained that symbol, there is no conjecture to copy Wiligut words. But you as all the rest of the "experts" will never learn to learn. You think to know everything, but what you write is childish. You only try to attack, exactly as a child.

Originally Posted by Evgeniy
My arguments on the stones are stated above, if you haven't learned to read - not my problem ))))

Arguments? Proofs? Evidences? Where are them?
Gottlieb book is a proof? Read above! Ah ah ah ah ah ah!!!!

In all your post there is nothing. So, we are still waiting for you to post something interesting.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 08/27/2021 11:14 AM.
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Collectors

First off I couldn't care less about SS Honor rings! No dog in this argument!

I thought a interesting discussion was getting personal on opinions and knowledge or pedigree of knowledge!

Very un professional!


Now !

Ed Sunday a member here in the past was a very able jeweler and watch person!

He could work magic on things! His work area contained little pill bottle type containers for tiny stones,all types of goodies!

He could dip into his items for anything ! Could he add stones to a sword,ring watch etc! Sure could! And you would not know it!

Period items going way back!


That said I don't know when stones were added to this ring! Not my field! Only a well qualified jeweler would know!



Next

Just for discussion!

John Pepera lived very close to me! He was a noted SS,collector,Party badges,SS daggers,Prototype SS dagger, and in many big time books!

He was well known in the collector world!

He shared many of his items and things with me!


I am going to share this reall SS tux badge he owned! He allowed me to take pics of it front and back! Didn't want the back showed for the fakers and most never
have seen the back of a real one!

Now I have better pics someplace!

But here is a close up of it! You can see the red felt eyes! The picture of the back shows the felt!

Now back in the day this badge was worth 5,000 US dollars! Not sure of value now or who owns it!

I can assure you John did not add the felt! This is the real deal!

But John was very much the man in many fields!

Can't ask John his thoughts of why or when!

He passed yrs ago and we lost a giant!

So just take a step back folks!

Many things are a mystery!


PVON

image_2573931sseyes jp.jpg (86.74 KB, 86 downloads)
image_2573928tuxbadge.jpg (84.07 KB, 85 downloads)
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Pvon
I agree. There is definitely some conflict between the 2. There is no reason to try and "one up" another just because books have been written by them. Also, there is a language barrier with Mr. Scapini that I think comes across as being brash and holier than thou attitude.
Now for the rings. I like the history! I don't (or didn't) collect for the political aspect of the items. Don't and never did support 3rd Reich policy. If you collect for the history and personality of the recipients, it is fun. Not sure if that makes sense but just saying if you want to delve into the metallurgy that is fine, just don't think everyone will follow your step:)

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Tanker

You being the owner of a well known ring,show class and clarity on your thoughts!

Language may be a issue! I did consider that!

This forum gets over run with biker rings,ebay,fakes,and such that when real stuff gets shown or discussed like Wotons find!

Its exciting to talk about the history or discuss rings and the mystery of real!

After seeing endless biker and ebay stuff!

Sometimes a few questions get asked in the hope of why!

But with so few real rings in collectors hands we have to expect the is it real question!

PVON

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Please, let me say few words.
Yes, there is a language barrier that sometimes is a problem, for me to understand and for what I would want to say.

Yes, I know I am not kind, and I am sorry for that. On my side I decided to not accept anymore unfounded statements in this field. We all know we tolerated invented informations for decades. I honestly think it is time to change our approach.

As I always said, please forgive me for been not kind and sometimes rude, my goal is not to be up to anyone, just to have real evidences and good informations for all the collectors.

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Mr Scapini
No problems with your research and info. Just keep in mind some folks (me) are not that involved in the inner workings (not that it isn't important and shouldn't be researched though). Have a great day and yes, keep posting your research. Ron

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I know and have met Evgeniy personally . , and have gotten friendly with Antonio also over the last couple years... He and Antonio both have English as their 2nd, 3rd,4th? language. I do know they are both passionate about the HR... Don't think they're insulting each other just overly zealous, I too can be victim of it.. There are certain truths about the HR we will never know and just have to accept it..

The early HR that had the diamond in it. The NSDAP treasurer [forget name]... It originally appeared here many years ago. If I remember correctly it was given to him from his mother! It was a great job skillfully done. But still done sometime postwar... Yes Craig finally managed to get him to sell it and 'restored' it.. My opinion is he ruined it forever....


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