UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Police Uniforms Forum New Bender Police volume 2 book

Uniforms Organization and History of the German Police: Vol. 2 By John R. Angolia and Hugh Page Taylor

This is "THE BOOK" that we Polizei Collectors have been waiting for! (Vol. 1 came out way back in 2004.)

Vol. 2 is stated to cover 5 of the major branches of the Polizei organization:
� Protection Police
� Traffic Police
� Municipal Police
� Gendarmerie (including Motorized branch) and
� TeNo / TN - Technical Emergency Corps.

The book will be huge, at 808 pages & 1,083 photos / illustrations. (More to See and More to Learn!)

http://www.bender-publishing.com/Uni...oliceVol2.html

I got a change to read portions of this book pre-publication. The degree of Detail and Explanation, as well as the depth of previously unknown (unseen) information, and well as historical documentation - is without any comparison. This will soon become 'THE' Reference.

I've got my order in for a couple - (one to Use and one to Archive) - and can't wait for their arrival! ... Txs, Dave/dblmed

Even More New Police Material

I just followed the LINK, and there is also a Uniform Poster taken from a German Police office! It has been reproduced (in Full Color), and looks to me, like it is probably the best identification tool for German Police Uniforms. (No more squinting when looking at those little pictures in the rare to find, DDP Taschenbuch or Soldatenfreund issues.)

This is ALL really great news - in helping to understand the many aspects of the German Police! Hat's off to Roger Bender for bringing new great materials to us as Collectors.
Txs, Dave/dblmed

Although I am quite happy to see the book coming out , and I really do understand some people's great interest in TENO, when did it become one of the five major branches of the POLICE?

The TENO, along with the Luftschutz and mine police, amongst other really non-police related orgnizations, were absorbed into police contol during the war to allow them access to controlled areas, BUT can we really call them a branch of the police?

I have always considered the TENO as a governmental organization like the US FEMA, not really a police organization in any true sense.

I think I might have preferred that the Wasserschutzpolizei, Verwaltungspolizei, SD, etc be covered before the TENO. Just my bias I guess.I am really a bit surprised that 1/4th of the book is devoted to this group. Perhaps it reflects the amount of material available to the authors on the subject, I don't know.

Bill Unland

Bill... Your concerns and observations are well taken - and you certainly KNOW the structure of the German Police! (I may have taken the "5" out of its intended context when I read the promo. for the new book.)

From my perspective (which is admittedly limited) - the Bender "Police Series" seems to be covering both the Classic (Long Established) Police Organizations, as well as the New (TR Use) Police Organizations (i.e TeNo, Luftshutz, etc.) I have no idea 'how' the authors chose which Police Organization to include in which volume (1 and 2 so far, with others to come.)

My 'guess' only, is that a Publisher might not want to put all of his 'big gun' subjects Wasserschutzpolizei, SD, et al, in one volume (or even 2) in order to spread out the interest in the coverage of the Police. Only an uninformed 'guess.' As to the number of pages devoted to each branch, my 'guess' again - is that Bender / Angolia and Taylor were looking to bring 'new and unknown' information about the various organizations to Collectors (much like Littlejohn did with his super "Defending the Reich."

My understanding it that the TeNo did 'become' a Police Organization as early as 1936, when Frick designated the TN a "hilfsorgan" of the Polizei. (So the TN would not be a "Classic" Polizei branch, but a special TR Polizei Branch.) Himmler began his consolidation of the Police in 1936 also (as you know much better than I do!) TN high officers (Landesfuhrers and Bezirkfuhrers became Police GeneralMajors and Obersts, in about 1943. Theodore Siebert was a Police GeneralMajor prior to when he was posted to TN as Stelv. Chef der TN. Hugh Taylor's outstanding text outlines the historical time line of the TN's 'incorporation' into to Polizei, as the book will show.

Attached (hope it is large enough to read!) is a 1 Juli 1938 TN Verondungsblatt, which shows the breakdown of the Polizei (in Austria admittedly). The TN is listed as a part of the ORPO. (I Photoshopped the front page, with the various Polizei listings, to save space.)

Like you, Bill, I look forward to the multiple volumes of the Bender "Police Series" covering ALL of the branches of the German Police. The 'order' in which that will happen - is probably known only to Roger J. Bender! ... Txs, Dave/dblmed

I would never claim to be a Polizei expert but I've assumed the series to cover both existing "traditional" branches (pre 3rd Reich)and those created and/or attached and subordinated to the Orpo during the 3rd Reich.

With volume 1 having a lot of Landespolizei data, I expect groups beyond the Schutzpolizei des Reich, Schutzpolizei der Gemeinde, Gendarmerie, Kriminalpolizei, Feuerschutzpolizei, Kolonialpolizei, Wasserschutzpolizei, Bahnschutzpolizei, etc.

From the start I hoped for equal details on what might be considered "not exactly police" areas like Teno, Hilfspolizei tangents, Landwacht and Stadtwacht, NSKK Vehrkehrshilfsdienst, and HJ Streifendienst. As a researcher historian, I hope to see a lot of the huge number of various police related scools as well. The armed field battalions and regiments (outside the 2 Polizei Divisions) I do not expect to be covered in as minute detail as it would be operational studies and with so many would equal multiple volumes for that area alone. Also add the ungodly number of administrative commands, offices, schools, etc.

I would assume they define a major branch of the Polizei by it having a specific Amt (or other decided admin level for including be it Amtsgruppe, Hauptb�ro, or whatever) within the Hauptamt Orpo. That parameter qualifies Teno,though I'd guess many topics to be eventually covered are smaller.

It's a huge topic to research, like any undertaking this massive I doubt few appreciate the amount of documents and research involved. Myself, if I'm doing a topic I include all I can find on a tangent or specific, even if it creates some slight imbalance. Some areas no material is available for research, other areas one gets lucky.

At the moment I'm working on the Polizei Division volumes of my SS/Police German Cross in Gold series. The huge amount of material I have to deal with and keep track of just for that makes the task of Hugh and Roger that much more incredible in my opinion. And trust me, just physically designing and creating a layout for so much material is a near nightmare.

No arguement about the TENO, or any of the other "ancillary" groups being under the administrative control of the OrPo..............just as an old cop, my personal prejudice says if they didn't enforce the law or function as emergency responders it's hard to see these groups as "POLICE". That's just me. No reflection on other's interests.

We all know that during the Goering/Himmler power wars lots of the pre-war political and ancillary groups came under Orpo authority, and in a comprehensive study of the subject of course they should be discussed. I was just a bit surprised that 25% of the 2nd volume was devoted to TENO whose only actual "police" function was sewing a black eagle on their arm sometime during the war.

It seems the FSP, Feuerwehr, WSP, LSP, VP, and such fit the traditional "Police" definition more than TENO (note the optional chart does not include TENO uniforms, so even during the period TENO was not considered a traditional police organization). Again not a criticism per se, just voicing my surprise as I had looked forward to these services being covered, noting that the Teno was covered in some detail in the "Defending the Reich" volume with the "traditional" police being rather superficially glossed over in that book.

Not trying to start a war here nor criticize the book which I have been looking forward to along with every other police collector. I also cheerfully contributed what resources I had available to me to the authors and publisher, so I am certainly looking forward to getting my copy. I would also note I have nothing against those interested in the TENO as I pinned the TENO thread at the top of the forum for the benefit of those who collect their relics.

Just explaining my earlier post.

W.Unland

I don't think anyone took anything here as a negative. Regards my last post, was just trying to understand or give theory as to how some areas are selected, define a "major" area, etc.

In something so big, a researcher would need a parameter of some type just to come up with the pages just listing topics to be done before any work actually started !! I'd guess sequence is both a time line and by area completed. I'm always working on 2-3 books at a time. The first one completed gets printed. I assume Roger and Hugh do the same with series components. The whole gathering, confirming, etc process is a factor.

Bottom line, I'm already thinking about volume 3 even though that same thought drives me nuts when I put out a new book is out and one of the first PMs I get is asking about the next one !

Thanks Bill and Mark - I am Positive that there are never any Negative vibes (or intentional thoughts) amongst us as friends & like minded TR Police Collectors and Historians. We may differ at times with regards to prioritization, or interpretations, or the fine points of uniforms and insignia (that is Normal, and healthy for learning) - but at the end of the day - All of our intentions remain Focused and they are the Same: learning more about the ever so complex "TR Police" Organization & hoping to help, in some small way, solve some of those many still unsolved 'mysteries.'

Bill, without your leadership (and that of Dave Cameron, ORPO, SCHUPO, Ernst-H, Jiri Libal, Sr., Gary9, Joe Wotka, Bernd & DougO - and a host of others... excuse me please if I did not mention your name! ) - we 'Intermediates' and 'Newbies' in the field of collecting Police items, would still be at the mercy of the "Wolves & the Uninformed." Your well detailed example threads of typical Eagles, and the known Fake Eagles, and others - are all Classic material, which I hope has found a place in this, and other Police Books.

Your rescuing & rebuilding the GDC Police thread, deserves our special THANKS, BILL!!! Your patience and your foresight in allowing the TeNo to find its rightful 'Home' in the Police thread - (and then Pinning the thread!!) - has been a Godsend in bringing so much previously unseen, and unknown, information forward to be shared by all. I Thank You!

Now, or a few months from now, may be the perfect time for us to Bombard Roger Bender and Hugh Taylor with letters, and Emails, of WHAT we, as Police Collectors, want to see covered in Vol. 3!!! (As Mark said, I also am amazed at the length of time that it takes to research, review, gather materials and examples, and then WRITE & Layout - a stellar text for a truly great TR Collector and Historical Book.) Publishers and Writers want to produce quality Books, but also Books that the collecting community WANTS to Buy and Read.

Bill, Hats off to you, and to ALL of the members who contribute to the GDC Police Thread / Forum, & who are the driving forces and inspirations, for advancing the knowledge base of the German Police! ... Txs, Dave / dblmed

Thanks to Dave for starting this thread and to Bill and Mark for coming in on it in such a lively and constructive manner.

First of all, when it comes to the "too much TN debate" I assume total responsibility for that choice. There are a number of reasons. First, a rather selfish one: I have always been fascinated by the TN and consider it a historically great organization that did a fantastic amount of good during its Weimar and TR existence, so good in fact that the powers that be in post-war Germany decided to re-establish it under another name, as we have explained in the book (their shield was admittedly also tarnished in WW2, as I've also pointed out). I have had many original insignia wall charts over the years, but the only one I have kept (had framed and hung on my study wall) is the April 1940 "Dienstkleidung der TN" (well, I also have Andrew Mollo's classic reprint of "Uniformen der Waffen-SS" and will have the Polizei Tafel 1 when I receive my copy from Roger!)

Second, it was to my mind an interesting branch of the Police to cover in our series: I agree with Bill that it was not a "main branch", but the fact that it became an integral part of the Police is undeniable when you consider that the RATN was a part of the HAOP and it was headed by senior SS officers, one of whom never even put on a TN uniform.

I greatly appreciate Bill's help with what Mark has rightly said was a huge undertaking, and will never stop thanking him and all the small army of others who generously shared their hrad earned knowledge and collections with me. But to liken the TN to the mine police is going a bit far to my mind (just consider the relative strengths and structures) and although I'm responding with great respect to an "old cop" who understands what the police is all about far better than I, I cannot agree that a) they did not take part in enforcing the law and b) their only police function was stitching on a black sleeve eagle (you'll see wonderful photos of this in the book, BTW!)

Another reason I went to town over the TN is that, as correctly pointed out on this thread, my sadly departed fellow author from the Bender stable, David Littlejohn, did such a damned good job on the subject in his "Defending the Reich". Virtually nothing had been written on the subject until then and, pow!, there he went with 75 great and well illustrated pages. I imagine many of those interested in the Police will have bought David's book, so what was I supposed to do in a series devoted to the Police? Refer readers to David's 75 page coverage and then just add corrections and additions? I don't think that would have been right and decided the chapter had to stand alone. So what I wrote includes everything that Littlejohn gave, and a great deal more.

Next the TN chapter grew a little like Topsy because Dave and a small and dedicated band of TN enthusiasts transferred some of their passion to me and bombarded me with wonderful illustrations that I just could not resist sharing with readers.

With hindsight I suppose we could have cut the TN chapter back, perhaps to the 11% it occupies in "Defending the Reich". But why? I think fair judgement on this can only come when those interested in this debate actually have the book in their hands and make up their own minds.

I think the test will come if Bill and those who share his view are disappointed with our coverage of what were, in fact, the main branches: the Lapo in Volume 1 and now the Schupo, Gempo and Gendarmerie in Volume 2. This remains to be seen and I look forward to his/their views on this. Jack and I put into those chapters what we had available: no-one's perfect, and there may be gaps, but they'll hopefully be filled later in the series.

And it would be great, in a perfect world, to have written and completed this series in advance, like those who have published the great encylopaedias. That way we could have got issues like balance and sequence just right. But life's not like that, at least not for me. I am not a professional writer and this is my hobby. Of course Jack, Roger and I worked out as good an index for the whole series as we could before we even began on the Introduction, but there are a lot of dynamics at work in creating a series like this. Some may object to all the pre-TR material in Volume 1, but I thought it essential to set the scene, explain what had gone before and thus explain why the Police in the TR was organized as it was. Critics of lack of logical sequence may object to our mixing chapters on purely uniform and insignia data with those devoted to the branches of the Police. But I think it would have been a shame to have isolated Jack's wonderful uniform and insignia coverage to the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd volume: this way we saw a valid mix and that's the way we continued in Volume 2.

What I do want to impress on Bill and anyone else who may think the TN muscled in and took up too much space in Volume 2, is that we've not set a limit on the number of volumes in this series. ALL branches of the Police will be covered, be they large or small, with inevitably greater attention paid to those with interesting uniforms and insignia. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we set out to provide readers with what we think they will appreciate and find informative.

I agree with Mark though, that when it comes to the huge subject of the field elements of the Orpo it would be out of place for us to fill volumes with all the order-of-battle and historical data we have at our disposal. Interesting stuff, and certainly worth a summary and list of elements, but our series is not the correct forum for that - not least because there was relatively little by way of unit distinguishing insignia.

Bill referred to the great "Uniformen der Deutschen Polizei" chart that Roger is making available at this time. I'd agree that no mention is made on it of the TN and in fact cannot recall seeing a single chart (or plate in a book) where Polizei and TN are shown together. Thank goodness I didn't suggest offering my TN chart, that would have been TN overkill!

I've penned this in haste and certainly don't want to give the impression of being argumentative. I hold Bill in high regard and owe him my thanks. I hope that he and all those who buy Volume 2 will enjoy it and find it worthwhile and that I can count on him and others to continue to help Jack, Roger and me with the rest of this series.

hpt

TN's included for a full quarter of the Volume 2...geeze, and here I got tunnel vision just on the inclusion of the Gendarmerie and lost track of anything else. Orange Fever is rough on me!

Well, I certainly can't wait to see what quality work was done on the three of the major police branches: Schupo, GemPo and Gendarmerie. There are certainly a lot of auxiliary units, branches, etc. that could be touched upon for valuable filler when discussion polizei. Although available material seems to be limited in most cases, but it sounds like you will be breaking some new ground with TN that will prove to be interesting.

In the end, I have to say that I certainly hope those chapters on the major branches have received the same enthusiasm and been taken as far as possible! And soon we will see, I can hardly wait!

I certainly hope you won't be disappointed Dave, especially over your precious Gendarmerie!

A useful test could be to see from readers' feedback (also hopefully on this Forum) how much we left out of our coverage of the Schupo, the Gempo and the Gendarmerie - and compare this with what the TN affacionados (a compact but passionate and very well informed group) say we left out of the TN chapter. If the balance sways in favour of our having covered the TN better than those "classic" branches, then I will have to confess to having gone astray. I'm thinking mainly uniforms and insignia here, but the same applies to organization and history. Upon reflection, if I can think of a gap I would have liked to have filled, then its with the mysterious organization that looked after the Autobahnen - two thought-provoking photos are included at the end of our Motorized Gendarmerie chapter. But we gave what we had and could find.

A really positive outcome of this debate would be for readers to contact Jack, Roger or me (or me through this Forum) and tell us where we went wrong and fill us in on what we left out. I promise we would then share that knowledge with our readers and that would be, well, true and satisfying progress!

hpt

Got my copy and been reading it for 4 days.

In the current economy everything seems to be worth less.

The book is worth a lot more than it costs. I'll save myself time trying to write a detailed comment on something with 800 pages and 1,000+ photos.

Just buy it. If you're to cheap to buy books, you can just charge a fee to each friend who wants to borrow it to get all your money back.

Mark C. Yerger's Post ..... Response to a Post on WAF

"....Great Books - Need Dedicated Contributors...."

Militaria Books, IMO, seem to be written from a learned Military Historian's perspective - UNLESS the Collecting Community chimes in, with:

* Check out these Photos, they are Special (... because), or
* Look at this Item, as it is special (...Because), or
* Look at these Documents, Ausweis, Soldbuchs, TR Publications, etc.
* As Collectors, we CAN make a difference - and we should. Because we are the End Group of purchasers for the books which we hope for.

As Hugh / HPT said, "No one knows it all" - the TR is just too broad, and there are Informational Gaps. So the more material that we collectors can Contribute and Provide to help the Authors - the better is the complete coverage in the final Book.
It means taking time, and:
� photographing your 'Special' Items,
� burning a CD,
� and mailing it "Down Under",
� or sharing the Items
- but the end result is worth it, IMO..." Dave/dblmed

MARK - Your comments are "on target" so I am Re-Posting them here on GDC, edited as they apply to our GDC Police Forum ...Dave

Many authors have a lot of material but it is the single contributions made by many that can add so much. Many with a small collection or holdings think "I only have this 1 thing" so they don't offer it. PLEASE DO!

Often what the author and his helpers can do is ADD to the owner's knowledge of his item as they have more and new information on the book topic (otherwise they would not be doing a new book).

I've always had great interest in TENO militaria for its unique and attractive design, as well as rarity. As a historian I like the text related to an area, personalities, commands, etc. So Volume 2 filled both my interests. I love turning a page and thinking to myself:

"If I saw him before I wouldn't know who he was or what he did. And if anyone asked me to find this info myself, I wouldn't even know where to look first." So data/photos of the TENO commanders was a nice "brain rush" for me, historian wise.

Then elsewhere in the book, I turn a page and get to see surviving Police examples of things I'd otherwise never see or be able to own. The various examples of White Police Headgear cause drooling.

Volume 2 must have been exhausting to compile and write, then hair-pulling to lay out the design for something so large and complicated.

I'm reading and absorbing the "non-militaria specific aspects" generally first due to historian interest. Hoping that data registers in my mind in case a name, command, or similar data crosses my path as a missing piece of the history recording process. When I get "brain tired" and take a rest, it reminds me what it must have taken to write what I'm only reading.

I think Hugh did a marvelous job, but I simply assumed that before I got the book while many wanted to "hear about or see before buying." His name is a guarantee anything that he writes will be great. A dealer's name on a certificate of originality is [nice] but having Hugh's name on a cover is like knowing the lottery numbers before you buy a ticket.

I hope the authors take a short and deserved "brain rest" before plowing into the piles of material for Volume 3. But they probably won't and I assume part of that is already in a computer "down under." Mark C. Yerger
__________________
Scans or paper COPY photos off SS or Police German Cross holders needed for my series with Bender Publishing, with or without the award shown.
___________________

Dave/dblmed - MY COMMENT - When one sees the number of, & the quality of, & the rarity of, the special and various Polizei items contributed to Vol. 2 from the GDC, it makes me, for one, so very proud to even be a small cog amongst some of the most significant & most influential & most Collegial collectors in the field of Polizei Collecting - right here on the GDC, Police Forum! ! !

I have ordered my copy thanks for the update and link and for one am very pleased with the space given to the TENO, it is maybe unfortunate that they where associated with the police formation but the fact is they where and deserve the exposure the more info the better thanks from me anyhow

PAUL

Txs Paul... Yes, It Is What It Is as we can't "unwrite" History - and to do so would be inherently WRONG. (i.e. look at some of the "revisionist quasi-semi-Historians" who have and are continuing to rewrite American History for our school age kids! Made me GAG when I was reading some of the American "History" as it was "revised" in textbooks that my daughter brought home (& that was years ago!)

The German Polizei was an inherently 'noble' & societal serving organization, IMO & from what I have read - but, which time, events, circumstances & Himmler contrived & twisted to use for his own distorted agenda (and contrary to the prior functions and ideals of the Polizei.)

Collecting TR Items and then studying them in the context of their Historical time-frame, is part of what makes collecting so very fascinating to me. Learning WHY TR items were made, & when they were made, & how they were made / what materials were used (and WHY) & what was going on inside of the TR (and the world) at that time - adds a special dimension for me. That is why I like to also collect TR magazines, tailor books, Org. magazines, like DDP, and documents - as it adds the documented "I was there at this time" dimension to collecting, IMO. I like to try to understand the "Big Picture." Just my opinion of things.
Best, Dave/dblmed

Many thanks to Mark and Dave for your most kind and welcome support - and I hope that your copy reaches you soon Paulbear and that you are happy with it.

Work on Volume 3 has of course already begun and we'll do our best not to make you wait too long. There are some really interesting subjects yet to cover and my bet is that 3 books - even as long as they've become - will not be enough! Volume 3 will certainly deal with the Administrative Police with their grey piping and all the wonders of the fire brigades and police forces. But then there's also the Wasserschutzpolizei, Werkschutzpolizei, Schuma, prison service, Postschutz, Bahnschutz, Funkschutz, Landwacht, Stadtwacht, Grenzpolizei, Sipo, ghetto police, field formations and units, schools, female auxiliaries, collaborationist police forces (in Norway, Holland, etc.)... phew! it goes on and on.

I don't want to be a bore, but cannot help myself from a) thanking those who buy the book, b) hoping it meets expectations and c) inviting all those who can add to or correct volumes 1 and 2, and/or help with the rest of the series, to make contact and allow us to share your precious items/knowledge with our readers.

Yes, reading these posts really makes it all worthwhile.

Thank you!

hpt

JUST recieved my signed copy of vol 2 and must say am very impressed with this offering my interest mainly the TENO portion. The book weighs a ton and that is mostly due to the huge amount of information never seen before in this book money well spent WELL DONE and thanks for this effort

PAUL

I am very interested to see this book>> however i have one question to those that have the book already >> does it cover Police adged weapons like police swords , bayonets, and daggers
regards

No it does not.

It DOES have a few photos and info in the TENO section though, if that is of interest to you.

Bill Unland

Thanks Bill for clarifying that Volume 2 does not cover edged weapons as such.

But that will be a chapter in a future volume.

hpt