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#349692 06/02/2021 06:56 PM
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Dave Offline OP
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For your records, a new Honor Ring.

I was going through images and found some of an honor ring which I took in 2002 at a show in Raleigh.

The owner allowed me to photograph it and I know it was later sold. I remember that it was very small and it barely fit on my smallest finger.

Dave

Name.jpg (183.34 KB, 261 downloads)
Date.jpg (182.25 KB, 261 downloads)
Skull 1.jpg (121.18 KB, 261 downloads)
Skull 2.jpg (133.07 KB, 262 downloads)
Rune.jpg (126.81 KB, 261 downloads)
Signatture.jpg (188.51 KB, 261 downloads)
Swaz 1.jpg (132.32 KB, 261 downloads)
Rune 2.jpg (121.88 KB, 261 downloads)
Rune 3.jpg (110.58 KB, 260 downloads)
Dave #349696 06/03/2021 02:14 PM
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Very strange ring, with several odd points.

Dave #349697 06/03/2021 03:05 PM
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Clear to expand?

Dave #349698 06/03/2021 03:38 PM
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when ever you see the sig runes close to the skull you know its a small one! Appears ok..

Maybe a reissue[?] It is a 37 but is the later type....

Dave #349701 06/03/2021 03:53 PM
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Tell us more. Tear it apart if you wish.

I found those pics on an old CD and they are from 2002. All I remember is that it was very small.

Dave

Dave #349702 06/03/2021 05:53 PM
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Dave,, not really my thing... I was thinking maybe a resized ring as one rune is closer to the skull than the other.. Or thats how it came out from the get go..

The 1st pattern has a flat band. 2nd type has more of the barrel band... Pretty sure a 37 would be a first type. So this would be a reissue... OR, maybe just a optical illusion or looking at 2D and the small size and the 1st type appears to be the 2nd.....

A collector who's good with the runes should be able to tell us for sure if its a reissue or really just the 1st type..

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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini
Very strange ring, with several odd points.
Please expand on this. The forum is for learning and a post like this serves no purpose other than seeding doubt.

Last edited by Tanker; 06/04/2021 02:07 AM.
Dave #349711 06/04/2021 02:58 AM
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Looks good to me!

Dave #349712 06/04/2021 06:13 AM
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Yes, strange ring, but original
Unusuall skull ...
Ring was not resized, just a crookedly soldered skull, it was done by people, not a machine, the master was a little mistaken - ok

Last edited by Evgeniy; 06/04/2021 06:16 AM.
Dave #349715 06/04/2021 04:28 PM
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Skull has nothing unusual, it is a perfectly matching 1938-1939 style.

Ring is strange because it shows some details that are "questionable".
I'll try to summarize without entering in details.

Starting from the point that has chances to be real (I would never say about a ring that it is 100% original via pictures, because it is not possible!), the ring IMO, even if is dated 1937, was made and awarded in 1938, because:

1) the skull was made in 1938, not before.
2) the runic designs belong to 1939-1938 pattern
3) The "Heilszeichen" runes in the circle, are hand made, so not matching with any of the known patterns. This could be a problem, very hard to explain if you don't know how these rings were made (and I'm sorry, but I really can't explain it here in few words).
4) the Swaz too has no match.


So, IMO the ring stands chances to be real, and, if real, it is one of the absolutely rare existing, with heavily hand modified runes. Usually, as we all know, the hand modifies were mostly made around the leaves and around the runic symbols, but they usually didn't change the original design.

Dave #349717 06/04/2021 07:33 PM
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I mean that skull not from 37 years ring, better look like from 38 year

Dave #349722 06/04/2021 09:46 PM
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Could the modifications to the runes and the swastika be a result of its very small size ?

Dave

Last edited by Dave; 06/04/2021 09:47 PM.
Dave #349723 06/05/2021 01:19 AM
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Hello, the Lichter ring was also shown 2009 on the CGottlieb site. Here the pics.
Regards,

3154(1).jpg (31.86 KB, 176 downloads)
3154(2).jpg (37.56 KB, 176 downloads)
3154(3).jpg (32.01 KB, 176 downloads)
3154(4).jpg (28.16 KB, 177 downloads)
3154.jpg (27.84 KB, 176 downloads)
3154p.jpg (28.13 KB, 176 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Dave #349724 06/05/2021 01:31 AM
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Hi Dave, I would say no.

It is a 100% hand modification.

I would also say that this modification is believable because the characteristics of the ring match with the time frame in which there was the switch from the so called '30 style to the' 40 and quite heavy hand modifications were still in use.
This is why I personally think it has chances to be real. Several details that fit each others.

Dave #349725 06/05/2021 01:39 AM
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Hello, Antonio,

Many thanks for your thoughts. I understand that it is 100% a hand modification, but wonder why they spent the time doing that ?

Was it the small size of this ring or some other reason ?

Dave #349730 06/05/2021 10:46 AM
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I think we will never have a precise answer to your question.

But we can try to understand something more...
Until 1938-39 Gahr craftsmen were used to re-work almost all the rings (only for some months, during the early production, they didn't re-work rings, and rings were so ugly they were forced to return to re-work them).

They didn't re-work rings the way we thought (it in facts is a total nonsense, and an incredibly enormous waste of time rework a die struck or a die-cast piece), but working on soft models, and that was easier and faster.

Anyway I think we will never know why a ring like this was reworked that way and why wasn't simply replaced with another, we can only speculate on it.
But we know how it was reworked. And IMO it is even more important than the "why".

Dave #349739 06/05/2021 03:44 PM
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Antonio,, we anxiously await the printing of your work!

Wotan thanks for the additional photos..

Yes there seems to be no rhyme or reason why certain things were done to the HR.. Himmler wanted everything about them to be special, in secret, and I guess they actually are! Why only Gahr the maker? Why the complicated process? what is the process? Why a type 2? etc. etc. Some things we'll never know,,but some we will..

The SS had its own newspaper and other periodicals. None that I'm aware of have a article about the HR or show photos.. Closest we have is the cover of a small booklet and even that only shows a stylized drawing of the HR on its cover..

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Closest we have is the cover of a small booklet and even that only shows a stylized drawing of the HR on its cover..

... And that drawing is also wrong.... And no one has ever known it.

Yes, I agree we will never know all the secrets behind this ring.

Dave #349822 06/09/2021 03:12 AM
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Possibly belonging to Obersturmfuhrer Hans Lichter. Only Lichter listed in 1937 DAL. Promoted to Ostuf. 1.05.38. SS nr. 63 688. Member of SD. Interestingly DAL shows that he did not receive TK ring in 1937. Could be mistake or perhaps received ring in '38 and ring was engraved with '37.

Dave #349823 06/09/2021 06:57 AM
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From my experience, DAL are not always right, some ring recipients are missing, some others has no match with the data reported.
Everything is possible. IMO both the possibilities you wrote could be right.

Dave #349847 06/10/2021 09:37 PM
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Hello, perhapy the key is, when the 1937 DAL has been PRINTED. Although I habe several DALs I do not own the 1937 DAL. So I cannot be sure but eg the 1936 DAL I do own has been printed on 1st of December therefore a ring bestowal on 24.12.36 is NOT registered in the 1936 list but shows up in the 1937 DAL for the first time.
so when was the 1937 list printed?
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Dave #349849 06/10/2021 11:41 PM
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The 1937 DAL was printed on 1.12.37, so the award date on this ring should, in theory, be covered in this edition.

http://www.dws-xip.pl/reich/biografie/numerD.html

If you dont have access to 1937 DAL you can find a digitalized version here. There is also 1934, '35, '36, '37, '42, '43 DALs there.

Dave #349856 06/11/2021 02:15 AM
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Thanks, Sarcasmos.

I am going to pin a post with that site

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Originally Posted by Sarcasmos
Possibly belonging to Obersturmfuhrer Hans Lichter. Only Lichter listed in 1937 DAL. Promoted to Ostuf. 1.05.38. SS nr. 63 688. Member of SD. Interestingly DAL shows that he did not receive TK ring in 1937. Could be mistake or perhaps received ring in '38 and ring was engraved with '37.

Not sure my posts were clear enough, so I write here a summary.
We don't know if that ring is a re-issue, but I am 100% sure that ring was made in the time-frame 1938-1939 (so after 1937).

Maybe the approval for awarding the ring was made in '37 and after that some delay happened... But who knows?

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I understood. I suppose it is impossible to know if it is 1938 or 39 reissue but if I had to place a bet based on the facts presented: it being only 1 year apart, and the DAL not showing the ring in 1937, I would say it is most likely that the approval for production ring was processed in 1937 but it was not actually made until 1938.

Dave #349963 06/14/2021 09:12 AM
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I totally agree with you. Most logic explanation.

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