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#348849 03/15/2021 06:10 PM
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den70 Offline OP
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Colleagues, there are iconic items in any collectible. Probably in collecting SA daggers, these are SA Christmas daggers. For me, this is the Holy Trinity. Two variants of the Christmas dagger and the later type Small A. After a long search and anxious waiting, I have a complete set of these amazing daggers. What's more, it's nice that Eichhorn has a full dedication to Roehm. Enjoy.

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Very nice.

Congratulations.

J


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Rare and beautiful!


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Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
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Yes, Very nice.

Dave

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Stunning you lucky man


Regards Sean
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A dream ! 👍 congrats to you = S+

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I just found your post, here, Den70... on my favorite forum!

So, let me also post the inputs that I already made elsewhere:

Here is an interesting picture: it shows 4 SA daggers, (most likely Christmas), in wear. Also note that there were no SS-men around at that time!
The typical condition of the scabbard, of the man shown on the right of Röhm, proves that this certainly is an Eickhorn Christmas dagger.

The parade in the picture was held in the first half of 1934 or before, because Röhm is still alive.
But look at the condition of Hayn's and Röhm's daggers: these daggers are far from new!
Would they both get banged up so badly in just a couple of months?
I don't believe so, they must have had these daggers for quit some time and that explains the single oval Eickhorm mark on the blade... but probably also the broken off tip!

Best regards,


Best regards,

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I also would be very interested to read, what Dave can tell about his Pack Christmas dagger: is that also a ground Röhm, with a broken or re-tipped blade?

Best regards,

Herman


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My EP&S prototype SA dagger is a ground Röhm but the blade is intact. I've had it for about 25 years. Photo in the intro to TW's SS dagger book.

Dave

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Thank you, Dave, for that information!
It also appears that the Pack Christmas daggers, all already had a steel based scabbard. This way they avoided what is seen in the picture: the earliest Eickhorn scabbards being made out of a copper alloy, easily got banged up.
So it could be, that the Pack daggers were a second order made by the SA, after the problems they experienced with the Eickhorn daggers...

Best regards,

Victorman


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den70 Offline OP
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I will also repeat my answer here.

Victorman, a little digging, I determined the time when the picture was taken. This is 03/25/34, the SA convention in Saxony. Therefore, during this time, the scabbard could be damaged. It is enough to drop the dagger once and the ball on the scabbard will be crumpled. The same with the scabbard, you can get warped on the same day that you received your dagger.

As one of our colleagues said, it seems to me that you take these details much more seriously than the Germans themselves from 1938.

Regarding the fact that you write that there are no SS officers with daggers. There are many photographs of January 1934, where a number of officers are wearing a dagger. We also know that already in January an application was submitted with a description of two types of daggers SA and SS, with differences in motto, color and diamond. There are also documents confirming that Roem awarded SS members in December.

Last edited by den70; 03/23/2021 08:07 PM.

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Hi Den70,

That could indeed be very well the SA-event I have posted some pictures from!
It is great to see that you get your information from period documents like this "Der SA-mann"!
Unfortunately, I personally have never seen any unquestionable picture of an SS officer wearing a Christmas dagger...

Also, general level officers, who are ruining their daggers in just a few months... that is something I cannot believe in.
Maybe they were not wearing them in public before 1934, but these daggers are not just 4 months new...

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 03/24/2021 04:10 PM.

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Herman,

Severely denting an SA dagger does not take very long, especially if you are using just a belt loop and short strap hanger instead of a three piece hanger. One quickly closed car door would do it. Same with flattening the ball.

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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Hi Den70,

That could indeed be very well the SA-event I have posted some pictures from!
It is great to see that you get your information from period documents like this "Der SA-mann"!
Unfortunately, I personally have never seen any unquestionable picture of an SS officer wearing a Christmas dagger...

Also, general level officers, who are ruining their daggers in just a few months... that is something I cannot believe in.
Maybe they were not wearing them in public before 1934, but these daggers are not just 4 months new...

Best regards,

Herman


Viktorman, although not everyone will agree with me, but if we, collectors, do not exchange information, we will not be able to get closer to solving the secrets of our hobby and it will be easy for scammers to take advantage of our ignorance. I thank my colleagues who share information with me. If we, the owners of Christmas daggers, exchange information, we can protect all collectors from fake ones. One collector wrote to me that he has Eichhorn's Christmas dagger in his collection, but most importantly he has a whole blade! Unfortunately, Roem's dedication is given to the factory, and the handle has questions. BUT this gives us another piece of our puzzle. Unfortunately, I cannot share his photo.

Now for the SS officers who were awarded SS daggers. Of course, in the old photos, we will not consider the runes on the button or the motto on the blade. But we can see many photographs of January 1934 when SS members wear daggers with old style eagle. There are also publications in the press that the Headquarters on Christmas 1933 awarded some members of the SS with the mention of their names. Since at the same time there is already a photo of Roem with his dagger on which there are already two buttons with the runes of both organizations, so it logically follows that at this time there could be an SS dagger. We also have a document in January 1934, which describes two versions of the dagger for the SS and SA with differences.

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Den, et al,

I've been looking at those, and other, blurred photos for many years and have concluded they show daggers. Whether they are pointy wing or later seems in the eye of the poster rather than in anything provable. Sorry, Den.

Dave

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Dave, thanks for your interest. But I can't agree with you. If in some photographs one can guess or determine by indirect signs (date of the photograph, suspension, event or officer), then there are many photographs where the shape of the eagle is very clearly visible. Moreover, this can even be seen on the previews, which are not very large in size and clarity. The main thing is to search!

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I found another interesting photo. It is dated March 4, 1936. As we see F. Todt wearing interesting dagger. Although the eagle itself is not visible, the early hanger, as well as the deformed scabbard again. Based on this, I think Todt is wearing his Christmas dagger. This photo tells us that even after the execution of Roem, the daggers were worn and did not even bother to change the scabbard for them, although 2 years have passed.

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Den,

the top three you posted look good and there are some good photos out there as well. Tom Wittmann showed 2 or 3 at the MAX Seminar in 2015 that were very clear. But in watching the forums and reading other documents, I see blurred photos that are not saying much. Particularly when it concerns SS daggers.

I agree that seeing that early hanger is a good sign, but one of those types of hangers is not proof that the dagger is a prototype. For some reason that style, which I call "dog lead clip" was favored early but disappeared later.

Dave

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Dave, here's a photo of the SS members showing an ancient eagle on the hilt of their daggers. The eagle is clearly visible in these photos. It was filmed in January 1934. These are the photographs and documents that I wrote about. Newspaper articles mentioning the rewarding of SS members by the SA headquarters on Christmas Day 1933. It is believed that the SA and SS Christmas daggers were at the same time. In addition to these photographs, there are many other photos, but they do not show the eagle in the hilt.

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Also attached a photo taken in January. This shows that Himmler has a dagger. And while it is difficult to figure out which eagle his dagger has in the first photograph, we have a photograph of the summer of 1934, which clearly shows an early eagle. I don't think he wore the SA dagger. Based on all these photos and facts, we still have to admit the fact that already on Christmas 1933, along with the SA daggers, SS daggers with an early eagle on the hilt were presented! And with a high degree of probability the motto on them differed from the generally accepted one.

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ss0-3.jpg (84.6 KB, 94 downloads)

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Den,

Yes, that top photo no doubt. I have seen that many times. That is the photo that convinces me that there are real SS Christmas Daggers. With the same eagle as the SA ones.

But the rest of the photos ... possibly .. but ..

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Den70,

I agree with Dave about the photo's.
These suddenly popped up very recently and out of nowhere, in order to support the "discovery" of 4 or 5 SS Christmas daggers, wonderfully preserved and all full Röhm daggers... but never sighted before, during 70 years after the war ending!

Actually, during the last 3 to 5 years, more full Röhm SS Christmas daggers popped up, than there were full Röhm Christmas daggers discovered during the past 30 to 50 years... and they are all in much better condition, with intact blade tips!
If this continues, the Christmas full Röhm SS-dagger will soon become a common dagger!


Dave,

Which photo is the real deal in your opinion? What is its origin?

Best regards,

Herman


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This one, Herman:

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It is interesting to observe that the Eickhorn prototypes pictured in full all seem to have broken points and the EP&S ones have the blade points intact.

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Thanks Dave,

This seems indeed to be a pointed eagle in the grip...

Do we know the origin (and perhaps the date) of this picture?

Best regards,

Herman


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Originally Posted by Dave
It is interesting to observe that the Eickhorn prototypes pictured in full all seem to have broken points and the EP&S ones have the blade points intact.

I agree, that remains a mystery.

Also, the Pack's all have a steel scabbard, which does not get easily banged up anymore!

Could the Eickhorns be the initial order, the Pack's the second and the Eickhorn small "A"'s the third, in order to get finally to the standard M33 SA?

Best regards,

Herman


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Originally Posted by Dave
Den,

Yes, that top photo no doubt. I have seen that many times. That is the photo that convinces me that there are real SS Christmas Daggers. With the same eagle as the SA ones.

But the rest of the photos ... possibly .. but ..

Gentlemen, I do not quite understand you, do you think that the photographs where Himmer is depicted or the photograph with Goebels is a fake? Do you think that daggers with old eagles were added to the original photos? We are now not discussing the originality of those silverfish that have surfaced over the past 3 years. We are discussing whether the SS daggers were awarded on Christmas 1933, and how many of these awards were many or few.
I repeat on the basis of these and other photos, as well as newspaper articles, the SS officers whom Roem awarded for Christmas are clearly indicated. Therefore, I believe based on these facts. On Christmas 1933 (it could have been more than one day), not only SA officers but also SS officers were awarded. Each officer has his own departmental dagger. Of course, fewer SS members were awarded than SA members.

Regarding the fact that recently some new, unknown objects have appeared. Thanks to the Internet, we all communicate easily and quickly. Previously, our communication between Europe-America and Ukraine would have taken months. And now we are exchanging information for a few minutes. And digital photography has made it easier to share knowledge. Now you can take a photo of a dagger in the most remote village, publish it on the Internet, and in a minute we will all know about it. Therefore, there is nothing strange in the appearance of new unknown objects. For example, my Christmas SA appeared a few years ago, it has a full dedication to Roem. Do you consider him a copy just because he was not known before?


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Den,

I agree about communications and I do not think that recently found daggers are any more a copy than the one like mine found 25 years ago. Every one needs to be evaluated by itself. As you say, the Internet has speeded things up greatly ... including the number of fakes !

We should leave the SS versions for another topic and save this topic for SA daggers. Agree ?

Dave

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Dave totally agree. This thread is about the amazing SA daggers. Yesterday I did a small photo session, I hope everyone will like this photo.

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Very nice, Den

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Hello Den,

That is a super cool display of your Christmas daggers!
Are those playing cards also from the 1930ies?

Your argument about the internet and communications is indeed a valid one. I remember that back in the early 2000's, during the golden era of this forum, even some bigger dealers did not know what a Christmas dagger was... But it is also about odds: the chance that 4 or 5 daggers of one type (that never was seen before), are surfacing in just a couple years is as good as unexisting... But lets focus on the SA i this topic.

I still remember when your Eickhorn Christmas surfaced here on GDC. For me it was an easy one to authenticate, because it had all the features requested and because of its condition: mainly the scabbard, but also the blade. This is not how fakers operate; they want to maximally blow up the value, so they try to produce high quality pieces.

About the pictures, there have been several cases of photo fraud in the past and most of the ones you posted here, are highly questioned by the collecting community...

Did you know that a Christmas full Röhm by Eickhorn was already shown in a reference book back in 1981, "Les dagues du IIIe Reich" by Charles Mermet and Jean Marfault?

Finally, please allow me to ask you: during your search for SA Christmas and small "A" daggers, how many fakes did you encounter? Did you take pictures of these or can you describe them?
It would be highly appreciated, if you would share that experience and information here.

Best regards,

Victorman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 03/27/2021 03:08 PM.

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Originally Posted by Dave
Den,

Yes, that top photo no doubt. I have seen that many times. That is the photo that convinces me that there are real SS Christmas Daggers. With the same eagle as the SA ones.

But the rest of the photos ... possibly .. but ..


Den, Dave,

I have found the picture in one of the Tom Johnson's books.
It sat in my library for over a decade and I never noticed this particular picture. As the photo is not there to justify the Christmas SS dagger, this is an eyeopener for me, that I must admit!

This does not mean that all 4 or 5 surfaced SS-Christmas daggers are authentic, but this type of dagger must have existed.

I was wrong and I apologize to those people I might have offended.

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 03/27/2021 03:10 PM.

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Herman,

As I suggested above, lets leave the SS daggers for a separate subject. Would you care to start one ?

SA Christmas Daggers:

Actually they were known years ago but forgotten by most. As you say they were in the 1981 "Les dagues du IIIe Reich" by Charles Mermet and Jean Marfault" of which I have a copy. Also discussed elsewhere. I must check my books

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Hi Dave,

I'll keep it on SA's.

Did not we start a topic already a year or 2 ago, when a SS surfaced??
This picture certainly belongs in it.

Best regards,

Herman


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The other old book that pictured an SA prototype was "The Cold Steel Weapons of the SA, The SS, and the NSKK of the NSDAP" by Ernst Niederhofer. I own a copy but cannot find it blush

Herman,

Why not start another? OK with me

Later - it's the second from the top in the SS Dagger Forum - Dave

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John Angolia's book "Daggers, Bayonets, and Fighting Kni8ves oh Hitler's Germany" (1971) Mentions the SA prototypes ... even saying on page 20 that there were scabbards with copper bodies. On page 21 he shows the production Eickhorn with the early blade.

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Dave,

Yes, very interesting that these early reference books already wrote about the SA Christmas daggers;

I did not post mine for a while so, I thought it might contribute to the topic.

Best regards,

Herman

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Herman that is a stunning dagger


Regards Sean
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Here Mann, I love it.

One Eickhorn SA missing from my modest collection.


Johnz


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Thank you, Sean and John!

If I ever decide to sell, I will get in contact with THE Eickhorn specialist!

Best regards,

Herman


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