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Fake "prototype" mottos are rarer than fakes of the later motto, but they do exist:

Here is one where the faker had it going the wrong way grin

And another - a fake Eick with a wonky trademark and dedication on the back

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There was much discussion on WA about the rusting of the blade and the technicalities of rust and pin holes. I saw a grey blade, but that is not unexpected in a dagger of this age.

The key question here: "Is this a prototype blade or a later production blade ?" cannot be answered without seeing the tang. The prototype and later SA tangs are much different. Hopefully the owner will show us someday.

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The crossguards:

To me, they look more like early production EP&S guards than the ones on my SA Christmas dagger. As with the tang, seeing the insides of the guards will be a key to the full identity of the dagger. There are minimal traces of verdigris on the undersides of the upper crossguards.I've seen this before on SS daggers.

The grip:

The wood does not bother me. Many SS grips were made of lighter wood that was dyed and has later faded. A look at the grip out of the guards might tell more.

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The eagle

The WA thread established that the eagle was the same as a lapel pins marked RZM 69.

The question that generates is "why would EP&S use a lapel pin rather than the unique eagle that they, and Eickhorn, used on the SA Christmas daggers or prototypes ?". One poster speculated that the original eagle was lost from the grip and this was a quick fix.

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Those are my thoughts on the dagger. As I said above, it reminds me more of a 1934 production dagger than a prototype. JR saw it first. His post 282 on WA from 28 February 2020:

"I too like this one as it shows Pack fingerprint features of the entire hilt assembly, consistent with SS M33's that they began manufacturing in 1934"

Anyone have questions ?

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Excellent analysis, Dave!

No need for 87 pages of posts here on GDC, to see what this really is...

What is really surprising, is the number of different attempts that were made to copy the early eagle... on top of this version, just look at all the variations in this other post:

https://forum.germandaggers.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=349052&page=1


I am also still amazed how many WAF-members, including well known dealers! , do believe in such daggers...

In my opinion, this explains why faking and fabricating daggers (and other miltaria collectibles) will always remain a very lucrative business... many people simply want to get fooled!

Many thanks and best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 04/08/2021 03:27 PM.

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I've added a few more pictures to that thread - there is some duplication

Dave #349061 04/08/2021 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave
Those are my thoughts on the dagger. As I said above, it reminds me more of a 1934 production dagger than a prototype. JR saw it first. His post 282 on WA from 28 February 2020:

"I too like this one as it shows Pack fingerprint features of the entire hilt assembly, consistent with SS M33's that they began manufacturing in 1934"

Anyone have questions ?

Hi Dave I have been reading and watching and I do have a few questions ...... as your post is unclear, do you believe this dagger is a fabrication?
Do you agree with Hermann that the blade is fake?..... Or do you think this is an authentic 1934 early variation of some type"

Best Larry


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Larry,

The tang of the blade will tell whether it is a prototype blade or an authentic early 1934 blade. Nobody has an acknowledged real one for comparison. Maybe we'll see that someday.

The inside of the crossguards and a comparison with production guards, plus what the top and bottom of the grip look like will settle the grip issue. Again, maybe ....


You are pretty good at SA/SS what is your take ?


I'll add that when I found mine a long time ago I thought it was a fake with a hand carved grip, a stickpin eagle nailed to the grip and a wonky blade. Angolia's book helped me ID the blade and the analysis of the parts suggested it was something different ... not a production piece. Then TW found his and I drove up and we compared them. Voila.

Dave

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Hi Dave ..... I believe the dagger is an authentic piece that was produced in the period as it is,... including the grip eagle and
whether it was produced either in late 1933 or early 34.

Forgive me for not understanding but I want to be clear on this part ...You are saying without seeing the internal markings of the grip ,tang, and guards ,,that you dont know if this dagger was produced in that period time frame?

Since the thread on the WAF and the span of time between that thread and this current one..I have delved into researching it further and as I said in my opening statement above I believe it to be authentic.

Thats all I will comment on this at this time.

Best Regards Larry


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Larry,

To clarify - the tang and internal grip and crossguard markings will tell if it was made in 1933 - i.e. a prototype (Christmas dagger) or early 1934 -i.e. a dagger made on production tooling.

Best wishes,
Dave

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Hello Dave,

I would be very, very surprised, if you ever will get to see those markings...


Hello Larry,

Why are Dave, Den70 and I so openly posting our Christmas daggers on the forums, while the owner of that SS-dagger is hiding, for years now, behind his alias "Rohmdagger"?
Even now... when everyone knows who the real owner is?
What is there to hide if the owner is sure about his piece's authenticity?

Best regards,

Herman


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W
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W
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So Dave has seen the insides and confirmed that it is a period piece, not fake or fabricated whatsoever, he just believes it was produced, at least in part, with production parts in likely early 34.

https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/fo...584-rare-ss-pack-prototype-dagger/page95


Always looking for top condition daggers of any variety!
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