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May I suggest that some of you start with reading this treat, it dates from the golden age of the forum.
Some very senior people in the hobby were participating in this discussion on SA Christmas dagger prototypes.

Best regards,

Herman

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/~germand2/ubbthreads.php/topics/137899/1.html


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Just MY point of view.
Until there can be some kind of excepted reason for the Christmas SS dagger, I don't see a end to the guessing.
Yes, they could have been prototypes, just never put into production.
Yes they could have been limited runs going to just a few.
Yes they could be those fakes, or fantasy pieces.
Question:
Do we know how many there are? How many documented examples are there?
I mean, if there are only about 6 around today, all the above statements could be true.
Lets face it. German items from the war days are plentiful.
Lionel trains were toys from the 40's, there are as many as you want today in any condition you want. Some items falling into the same slot as these daggers.
It;s 2020, we are not going to get everyone on the same boat.
Ed

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So I hope the last posters understand now what the word PROTOTYPE means..

It seems people ignore the facts when not to there liking..
Again( If original )these at best are just a short run a limited run of early production daggers.. NOT PROTOTYPE.. Either there is a language problem or maybe heads are in the sand..
There is NO wiggle room here..

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There are documents of Krebs,Eickhorn and Alcoso SS prototypes.. Made one or just stayed in the design stage.. and some of these have been faked but very badly..

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Damast,

Are those the later ones ?

Dave

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Herman,

Thanks, I'd forgotten that topics. Less was known about the SA prototypes at the time. Since then at least two EP&S and two Eickhorns SAs have surfaced which adds some clarity.

The best info I have seen on the SA prototypes was Tom Wittmann's presentation at the 2015 MAX Seminar.

Dave

Dave #346032 03/21/2020 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave
Herman,

Thanks, I'd forgotten that topics. Less was known about the SA prototypes at the time. Since then at least two EP&S and two Eickhorns SAs have surfaced which adds some clarity.

The best info I have seen on the SA prototypes was Tom Wittmann's presentation at the 2015 MAX Seminar.

Dave




Hello Dave,

I only know about 2 extra, period SA Christmas daggers, that have surfaced during the past 13 years, since that topic.
Of course, I have encountered about a dozen or more fabrications, of which several with the wrong pointed eagle, that is also shown in that new booklet.
The SA Christmas dagger appears also in a couple old reference books and articles of militaria magazines.
But you will not find anything written before 2019, about any SS Christmas dagger. And now at least 4 -all full Rohm by the way!- would have surfaced in just 1 year, via the same, very small group of people... On top of that they dare to state that: "We hope that this reference may pull a few more out of the woodwork (maybe even an Eickhorn!!!)."
Anyone with some years in the hobby, knows what that means: it is like winning the jackpot in Vegas, 4X in a row and being sure to win some more times.
Good luck in Vegas!

Best regards,

Herman


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This thread shows one of the eagles that are noted in the book from a stickpin collection
The swastika seems a little 'pooched out' in the center and the tips of the swastika are slightly 'clipped' at an angle.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/non-combat-uniforms-related-insignia-third-reich/stick-pin-collection-14831/#post2056845

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Tex,

Exactly ! You hit the nail on the head.

The SA Prototypes all had the exact same unique eagle. Both Eickhorn and EP&S. Different retention method, but identical eagle that was NOT seen anywhere else.

Dave

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Damast,

Are those the later ones ?

Dave





Krebs and Alcoso are later Eickhorn would be 1933-35 ballpark

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I agree with Herman when he says:

"Of course, I have encountered about a dozen or more fabrications, of which several with the wrong pointed eagle, that is also shown in that new booklet."

He is speaking of SA prototype fakes, not only EP&S and Eickhorns, but at least two other supposed makers. They have been around for 15 Years or more.

Dave

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Quite a bit is known about the SA prototypes made by both Eickhorn and EP&S. That generates an interesting question:

Should The SS daggers in this book, made by EP&S, share the common characteristics of these SA daggers ... except, of course, the rune button, grip color, and scabbard color ?

Dave

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Tom Wittmann has done a new video on SA daggers including some very interesting footage on the earliest SA daggers.


https://youtu.be/vuGKkphe1hs

Dave

Dave #348974 03/30/2021 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave
I agree with Herman when he says:

"Of course, I have encountered about a dozen or more fabrications, of which several with the wrong pointed eagle, that is also shown in that new booklet."

He is speaking of SA prototype fakes, not only EP&S and Eickhorns, but at least two other supposed makers. They have been around for 15 Years or more.

Dave


Hello Dave,

I regret now, not having taken photo's of those fabrication, when possible.

May Den70 did that during his search for the original Christmas daggers?

Would be great if we could post some here and/or in the Christmas SA topic

Best regards,

Herman


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Herman,

I will look through my files as I have saved some. They started appearing after TW's book of SS daggers which showed my EP&S SA prototype or Christmas Dagger.

The problem is that some of the owners think they have the real thing.

Dave

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Hi Dave,

Yes that is a big problem, because not only the owner will defend his dagger, but even more the seller of the bad dagger will do everything to hide his fraud.

When I posted my SA Christmas dagger for the first time here on GDC, about 15 years ago, I immediately received e-mails of "collectors" that I did not know, asking for close-ups of the several components of the dagger and its scabbard..

I remember that, thanks to your wise advise at the time, I did not send them anything and even removed a couple more detailed pictures from my postings.

I believe now that, that is an element why it took the fakers quite some time, before they got the early eagle right... It also explains why we still get to see these wrongly shaped eagles, like one of the discussed SS Christmas daggers shown.

Best regards,

Herman


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Hi Dave ...just a question of clarity in your posts ....Do you believe the dagger shown on the booklet cover is fake ?
If you think the grip eagle is fake , do you think the rest is real?

Best Regards Larry


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Larry,

Good question. I have been pondering a response since I first saw that dagger. I keep hoping to see another early SS dagger.

Dave

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Larry, Herman, and others ...

No point in saying something is "fake" or "righteous" or "real" without looking at the details - ALL the details and then figuring out what it is. So, What do you see ? There are lots of pictures on WA at:

https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/fo...rum/968584-rare-ss-pack-prototype-dagger

Post pictures to make a point if you want. With a little effort, we can figure out what it is or isn't.

Dave

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Said another way: What is the basic dagger ?

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Hi Dave,

I have participated to the discussion on WAF.
Making it short, I see several problems with this dagger:

- The eagle: clearly a fabrication from the time, when the fakers were still lacking detailed pictures from the "pointed eagle", used in authentic Christmas daggers

- The blade shows very atypical age spotting, making me believe is was done purely artificially.

- Except for the grip wood, the other dagger pieces are probably original from cannibalizing a good early Pack SA and/or SS dagger.

- The green "verdigri" was applied artificially in my opinion: it appears naturally only when metals get in long term contact with leather, typically on vertical SS hangers for example. But why would there be "verdigri" on the eagle and on the guards?

- Also, the way the whole topic on WAF was set in scene: posted by an new member, proposing his "find", but who wants to remain unknown... (while everyone in the hobby knows who owns this bad dagger!)
Next some experienced collector/dealers ignore all the negative remarks made and state that the dagger is all good and period!

To me this looks this is a typical trap to get an expensive fabrication promoted and accepted, making it ready to sell off for big $$$$.

Best regards,

Herman

PS: By the way when, as usual, I was giving my honest opinion on the dagger, I got contacted directly by several of the dagger's promoters trying to silence me...

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 04/02/2021 10:40 PM.

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Thanks, Herman,

You answered the question as to what was the basic dagger used here:

"Except for the grip wood, the other dagger pieces are probably original from cannibalizing a good early Pack SA and/or SS dagger"

I think the first to spot this was JR, a very knowledgeable man as concerns SS daggers. He posted this photo of the lower scabbard fitting .

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This is what that same fitting on my Christmas dagger looks like. (please pardon the 20 year old pic)

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And here is JR's photo of an early SA taken in his office:

(Post 157 on WA)

WA157.jpg (174.7 KB, 154 downloads)
Dave #349021 04/03/2021 10:06 AM
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Dave,

I saw that picture before, but don't get the point... you mean that the ball appears a bid larger than usual?

That is mainly because of the angle of that picture and also because it appears not to have been crushed...

There are plenty of variations around...

Here is another larger one... and I am not even using a special angle!

Best regards,

Herman

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Herman,

The point is that the lower scabbard fitting closely resembles an early production EP&S dagger rather than that of a prototype. I suspect that the entire dagger, except for the grip and blade is a production dagger rather than one of the SA-type prototypes.

More later

Dave

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Hello Dave,

That I can fully agree with!

But I understood that JR tried to make a point with this image on WAF, in support of that fabricated Christmas dagger... strangely enough for someone specialized in SS-daggers...

Best regards,

Herman


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[i][i]- The green "verdigri" was applied artificially in my opinion: it appears naturally only when metals get in long term contact with leather, typically on vertical SS hangers for example. But why would there be "verdigri" on the eagle and on the guards?[/i][/i]

I have seen in 50 years a few instances of small amounts of the green stuff on parts of a crossguard or eagle. Not many, but a few.[i][/i]

Last edited by Texasuberalles; 04/03/2021 08:28 PM.
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The process of going through all the parts and trying to establish their origin or "parentage" can be very instructive.

When I first found my EP&S SA Christmas dagger, well over 20 years ago, there was a lot less known about the SA prototypes. The French book showed the blade of an Eickhorn prototype and Major John Angolia's book shows an early motto Eickhorn blade on page 21- the early production version with the normal grip. That motto matched mine. I compared the dagger components to other early SA components.

Here are three of the photos I took. Excuse the quality - these were taken with an ancient Sony Mavica 1

3CGS-out.jpg (41.4 KB, 107 downloads)
4 Grip Sides 1.jpg (35.22 KB, 107 downloads)
Scab length2.jpg.jpg (36.29 KB, 108 downloads)
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Back to the dagger.

The verdigris: I mostly associate it with leather on nickel silver - SS vertical hangers - but like Tex, I have seen small traces on eagles and crossguards so there is little to say there.

The scabbard screws have all been removed and replaced, but very carefully. The traces are there if you look closely. What that implies I have no idea. Anyone have thoughts ?

s11.jpg (87.6 KB, 107 downloads)
s12.jpg (95.23 KB, 107 downloads)
t07.jpg (45.94 KB, 106 downloads)
t09.jpg (58.56 KB, 106 downloads)
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The dagger, except for the nail between the eagle's legs, is mostly covered in a brown slightly green gunk. Probably nicotine but maybe age. TW's first SA EP&S prototype (shown below) has a similar but lighter coating that was on the dagger pretty solidly. Opinions on this are solicited

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More later

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Ooops. Got a post photo wrong so I'll start again blush

The diameter of the small ring on the scabbard is the smaller size used in later production daggers

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Here is my Pack Christmas dagger, on top, compared to two later production SAs. Notice the larger hole. Again, apologies for ancient photo.

Dave

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Interesting to note also, in the above photo, that the assembler had to use a file to enlarge the throat opening slightly for the top dagger. From the cuts - on the top right and lower left it was probably done to add a little room for the thickest part of the blade.

And the middle dagger had the opening widened at the extreme left and right ... most probably because the edges of the blade at the top - its widest part - had trouble getting getting in.

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The scabbard finish.

The ERM book, in the table on page 14, lists the finish as "Prototype finish"

This is the first time I have seen that definition used for an SA, NSKK, or SS dagger. The known SA prototypes have different finishes. The Eickhorns that have turned up have everything from solid copper bodies to all steel(?) bodies. The EP&S scabbards are all like the later production daggers with 'anodized' finishes or the remain of such.

I have seen the occasional SS dagger with a finish similar to the dagger we are talking about, but never paid enough attention or photographed the dagger.

Next, the dagger itself. First I am going to re-read the WA thread on this dagger.

Dave

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Hello Dave,

That is very interesting comparing information, you posted here! Many thanks!

But are you not giving away too much information for the fakers of these Christmas daggers?

Best regards,

Herman


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Herman, Thanks. Just about all that I posted is a remix of what was said on WA.

Speaking of Wehrmacht Awards, I re-read that entire threw. Phew! 87 pages. Lots of great information and opinions. Also lots of participation by the masters of the hobby: Pat, JR, Herman, Den, Frogprince, Damast, etc.

So, on to the dagger

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The blade:

The back has the full Röhm dedication and the EP&S trademark. Pat says: "... this is not a known E Pack inscription but I cannot see any red flags." He knows more than I do about these.

The front has the SS motto in a script similar to that used on SA prototypes. Is it correct ? With nothing for comparison, no one can say.

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Opinion was very mixed about the blade, even with a deep analysis of the letters by Den on WA post # 740

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