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#345780 02/26/2020 07:37 PM
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I thought it proper to note that a new SS dagger reference book was just published and while short, it focuses on SS prototype daggers and includes pictures of these pieces, which have never before been published. If this post is inappropriate promotion I apologize and please remove!


Here is the link: https://www.ermilitaria.com/product-page/the-first-of-the-best-early-and-prototype-ss-daggers

Really some great information!

WK

Last edited by WunderKind; 02/26/2020 07:38 PM.

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Great to see a new book. Post a picture or two WK. Mention the price if you want.

We solicit and encourage announcements of new hobby reference material. You may post a sales message here without having a premium membership.

Dave

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Thanks Dave, the ERM team appreciates your support. This first look into these pieces is only $16 for domestic orders and $20 for international orders. I hope to see you order one Dave! These were printed in short run and about 80% have already been sold. Here some photos used in the publication. The period photo shows an SS Gruppenfuhrer wearing one of these daggers. The second photo shows two of these pieces featured in the book!

SS proto prod photo.jpg (72.32 KB, 665 downloads)
SS 2B eagless.jpg (110.93 KB, 665 downloads)

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I don't believe in these: they came around since just a few years ago... and they are much too different from the handful original known SA Christmas daggers... not even close!

How many of these "have been found" already by now?

Best regards,

Herman


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Thanks for your opinion Herman, the period photos establish these existed.


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Luckely there are period pictures that prove their existanse.
Or are all these pictures reworked and photoshopped?

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Let's see the pictures

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I believe the one is posted above--the remainder are in the book


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There are four SS Prototypes known (3/4 of which appeared decades ago). Thanks.


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Just post the pictures.. People on the forum and other websites steal my photos and call it ( the old fair use excuse) Many in Russia and other European forums

The Team has to get there story straight.

Tom Wittmann has wrote that these all have surfaced in the last 2 years..



{{{The first Prototype SS example was brought to my attention a couple of years ago by a veteran family member who had an example, (he didn't know what is was at the time) and was good enough to send me photographs. It was an astounding discovery and one of the most important edged weapons to surface to the collecting community in many years. I had the pleasure of conversing extensively with the individual that owned it, and in fact gave him an idea of its worth after he sent me some photographs. The owner, once he realized the value, (like people seem to do), did contact various members in our collecting community, and was successful in selling the Prototype for slightly more than the figure I felt it was worth. It was a good deal for both people!

As things go in this hobby, new discoveries tend to cause the surfacing of other pieces that may have languished for years being unidentified in collections or family treasures. Now that three of these SS Prototypes have come to the attention of the collecting community, }} end quote....

While I'm friends with Tom (he was very much the gentlemen and bought me supper at the last SOS!! I do not agree with his opinion from pictures. But I'm sure that does not matter..
So it seems in the last 2 years 3-4 of these have just materialized and to sell them or to keep them sold (The Team) has to write what appears to be a scholarly pamphlet based on a few copied photos .
The pamphlet falls way short of period proof. 3rd 4th generation photos really?? Need at least the 1st generation photos for a starter . The Pamphlet does not even have all the early SS dagger makers listed..There are others known that are not on the internet .
As a faker TO THE STARS told me once (THE SHOW MUST GO ON) ......
I really enjoy the hobby but on the last 10 to 15 years it is all smoke and mirrors and greed..... And there needs to be a house cleaning..
This post is not directed to Tom Wittmann in any way.. He is a Great person and passionate collector.. It is directed only to these daggers that so badly need to be blessed by a team or village .. And it seems they also (self authenticate themselves). And that is a problem ..

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Tom just means these haven?t been published before and I don?t think have been posted online until recently. Again. These have been known to some for decades. ThAnks for your thoughts on the book.

Last edited by WunderKind; 03/18/2020 12:35 PM.

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DAMAST #345976 03/18/2020 01:00 PM
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@ Damast, what do you mean with 3th and 4th generation pictures?
They show the same daggers as the 1st generation pictures....
What does it matter if the used pictures come from the internet?
Don't we all look on the internet for pictures and evidence?
It would be a big coincidence that the pictures used and found on the internet, all were reworked with another grip eagle... especially when they all come from a different source.

I guess you're pointing out to 'reworked' pictures?
Can someone please post the same pictures where the daggers aren't 'reworked'?

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Originally Posted by WunderKind
Tom just means these haven?t been published before and I don?t think have been posted online until recently. Again. These have been known to some for decades. ThAnks for your thoughts on the book.


No he does not say that at all.... It is plain English..

Krikke #345981 03/18/2020 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Krikke
@ Damast, what do you mean with 3th and 4th generation pictures?
They show the same daggers as the 1st generation pictures....
What does it matter if the used pictures come from the internet?
Don't we all look on the internet for pictures and evidence?
It would be a big coincidence that the pictures used and found on the internet, all were reworked with another grip eagle... especially when they all come from a different source.

I guess you're pointing out to 'reworked' pictures?
Can someone please post the same pictures where the daggers aren't 'reworked'?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone can post pictures on the internet..... Anyone can copy pictures off the internet you must have the original pictures from the 1930s..
What I mean is the original period circa 1930s pictures are not taken from the 1st generation original photos..
The 1930s era photos are off the internet and other publications... So already these ( 1930s photos) have been copied at least a few times at best.. These are not original source
1930s pictures..
You do understand the original etch plates for the Rohm do still survive and are in fakers hands (for decades).
And it is also known that a (well known) dealer bought a etching plate with Rohm from a action house some time back..
How can you call this proof when your proof is (copied photos).. Follow the trail find the original photos... After that it is still a huge uphill battle as you need documentation of factories doing these with Rohm in Dec. Jan. The answers are out there along with other SS makers not listed.

DAMAST #345982 03/18/2020 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DAMAST
Originally Posted by Krikke
@ Damast, what do you mean with 3th and 4th generation pictures?
They show the same daggers as the 1st generation pictures....
What does it matter if the used pictures come from the internet?
Don't we all look on the internet for pictures and evidence?
It would be a big coincidence that the pictures used and found on the internet, all were reworked with another grip eagle... especially when they all come from a different source.

I guess you're pointing out to 'reworked' pictures?
Can someone please post the same pictures where the daggers aren't 'reworked'?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I mean is the original period circa 1930s pictures are not taken from the 1st generation original photos..
The 1930s era photos are off the internet and other publications... So already these ( 1930s photos) have been copied at least a few times at best.. These are not original source
1930s pictures..
You do understand the original etch plates for the Rohm do still survive and are in fakers hands (for decades).
And it is also known that a (well known) dealer bought a etching plate with Rohm from a action house some time back..
How can you call this proof when your proof is (copied photos).. Follow the trail find the original photos... After that it is still a huge uphill battle as you need documentation of factories doing these with Rohm in Dec. Jan. The answers are out there along with other SS makers not listed.


Well, I can copy a picture for 100 times without the shape from an gripeagle suddenly changes its shape...

The daggers that were researched are/were in hands of longtime collectors and in veterans family property. Till now when they finaly are researched.
You also have NO prove that these were made by the post war bought etch plates!
Till now there was no one who could prove that they didn't existed.
If SA proto's did exist, then why wouldn't there have been SS proto's?
It's only logical and common sence.
And there's to much paranoia aswell!

Krikke #345983 03/18/2020 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Krikke
@ Damast, what do you mean with 3th and 4th generation pictures?
They show the same daggers as the 1st generation pictures....
What does it matter if the used pictures come from the internet?
Don't we all look on the internet for pictures and evidence?
It would be a big coincidence that the pictures used and found on the internet, all were reworked with another grip eagle... especially when they all come from a different source.

I guess you're pointing out to 'reworked' pictures?
Can someone please post the same pictures where the daggers aren't 'reworked'?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you look on the internet for proof or research you are nuts, Crazy... What are the sources???? What is the posters agenda?? No academic paper can be written this way..
People who write references (booklets, pamphlets or the dagger world according to me) that find all information on the internet are condemned to fail.. And have!

DAMAST #345984 03/18/2020 02:47 PM
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And it is also known that a (well known) dealer bought a etching plate with Rohm from a action house some time back..

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damast, is it also proven that this (well known) dealer actually made fake R?hm blades?
If he did so and sold these, he should belong in jail.

Is it the same fond as is seen on the inscription of these Christmas daggers?
How about the 'Meine Ehre Heisst Treue' text?
Was such plate also bought by the same dealer?

Please prove that... thx.


Last edited by Krikke; 03/18/2020 02:48 PM.
Krikke #345985 03/18/2020 03:00 PM
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Well, I can copy a picture for 100 times without the shape from an gripeagle suddenly changes its shape...

The daggers that were researched are/were in hands of longtime collectors and in veterans family property. Till now when they finaly are researched.
You also have NO prove that these were made by the post war bought etch plates!
Till now there was no one who could prove that they didn't existed.
If SA proto's did exist, then why wouldn't there have been SS proto's?
It's only logical and common sence.
And there's to much paranoia aswell!
[/quote]
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
So you are on the team....
Who says there is no proof they were not made from original etching plates ???
Simple , does the team have the original 1930s photo...???? No....
You miss the point you have no control over the original photos.. What has been done (if anything) as the photos move father away from the original source..
yes, I can proof they did not exist. Any team member or serious collector is welcomed to come see what I have... And do not need copies of pictures that you the team never had control of the originals..
Your pamphlet or booklet would never be considered in the real academic world..
Forums are all about agendas..
Collectors always tell me Share your information here on the internet.. Why has the team keep it to themselves??. FOR DECADES
Why would all these well known dealers and large pocket book collectors NEVER mention these before ?? Share with the greater good etc... (JOKE) As you say they were known for decades... There are reasons and they are plain as day.. one is greed and the other is obvious.

Last edited by DAMAST; 03/18/2020 03:05 PM.
Krikke #345986 03/18/2020 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Krikke
And it is also known that a (well known) dealer bought a etching plate with Rohm from a action house some time back..

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damast, is it also proven that this (well known) dealer actually made fake R?hm blades?
If he did so and sold these, he should belong in jail.

Is it the same fond as is seen on the inscription of these Christmas daggers?
How about the 'Meine Ehre Heisst Treue' text?
Was such plate also bought by the same dealer?

Please prove that... thx.



As I said you are welcome to see for yourself... It would blow your mind..

Jail .. This is old news.. You have to pull your head out of the sand..
You do understand you have a team member with a history of reworking photos.. It is on the other forum..

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JR is not involved with these books or the daggers whatsoever.....


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I just can't but wonder how many of the posters have read the book?
I haven't yet myself and look forward to seeing it.

The comments of 'it's well known that' reminds me of an old wives tale mentality.
Lord, this hobby is full of them.

This is not the Bible, it's just something to be read and evaluated on it's own
merit for what it is or isn't. Maybe it's worthwhile - maybe not.

Last edited by Texasuberalles; 03/18/2020 05:35 PM.
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Texas
Well said.
Heck, no Honor Ring, no Christmass SS dagger, my future collection is getting smaller every day.
BUT HAY!! I'm getting richer.
Ed

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I agree. Well said, Tex.

I ordered a copy and have had it for several days and have read it and looked it the pictures several times.

Captivating. A whole new series of early EP&S SS daggers ? It poses many questions which I hope will get discussed here.

One comment about the above discussion on the photos: Whether the photos in the publication are 1st, 3rd, or 5th generation matters not. Look at them and decide for yourself what they tell you about the daggers in question. The originals were taken 85 years or so ago. If you feel that a photo has been manipulated, then say what part of the photo has been altered. If possible, show us a "before" picture.

Dave

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I have also had a copy of this publication a week or so now, and it is a great little book showing these 1.st pattern prototypes.
As Dave and Texasuberalles have said, the books info need to be discussed further.
Is there an agenda?
In my opinion it does look like an honest start at a discussion of prototype SS daggers which to my knowledge has not been published or "opened up" before.
Interesting.


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A reference book at 16 US$... it is almost a give away!
Why?
Maybe it is an attempt to quickly and maximally spread the (bad) information that is in it?

Does it makes those newly discovered, super rare, never seen before 2015, SS Christmas daggers become the real thing? Not in a 100 years!


For my understanding:

"Wunderkind" = "The red baron" (member on WAF) = "ERM" (another member on WAF)

Are all 1 and the same person, right?

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 03/19/2020 01:02 PM.

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So what?

Can you please summ up here in this topic what he or ERM is doing wrong?
What is it where you are accusing ERM from?
Research? Booklets? Reworking pictures? Fakery? Fraud? Potential fraud?
Let me remind you to chose your words wisely because that are some very hard accuisations based on nothing else then speculations!

Let's hear it sir.

Thanks in advance

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Krikke #346000 03/19/2020 02:54 PM
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Still keeping up the dirty work for ERM, Krikke?

You named a few very serious offenses here... but this is not a courtroom, right?

Maybe it is high time for you to stop pretending "naive and innocent".

Believe me: this is going to stick to you... for a very long time!

Herman V

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 03/19/2020 02:57 PM.

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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Still keeping up the dirty work for ERM, Krikke?

You named a few very serious offenses here... but this is not a courtroom, right?

Maybe it is high time for you to stop pretending "naive and innocent".

Believe me: this is going to stick to you... for a very long time!

Herman V


Herman, you are becoming very boring man!

Going to stick with me??? I don't think so.
There's nothing that I'm doing wrong.
You're just paranoid.

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Enough of the name-calling !!

Herman and Krikke, you need to tone down the talk and leave out accusations.

Discuss the contents of the book. Post pictures of the artifacts.

Dave

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Probably the first thing to agree upon is the definition of a prototype dagger .....

Anybody willing to try ?

Dave #346011 03/20/2020 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave
Probably the first thing to agree upon is the definition of a prototype dagger .....

Anybody willing to try ?


To me the name 'prototype' is a bad choise. Prototypes from whatever objects are not realy in use in daily life. They're made as a testobject to discover positive and negative features of it and to see what could be improved.

These early Christmas daggers, SA's and SS's, were accepted and distributed to some high leaders.
Imo the naming (rare) 1st type M33 would be better choise.
Just like is the case with M36 daggers.

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Prototype or proof model (probe in German).

Prototype is best. for me

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Krikke, Tex,

Right.

Prototypes are built to test a design concept. They also serve as a learning experience for the factory engineers so that production can be as smooth and as cost efficient as possible.

Dave

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I'd say prototype is a poor name here. I expect a prototype to be a pre-production model.

I would rather say "Trial Production" if a limited number is produced for verification by the customer before the mass-volume is produced.

On a side-line, it happens all the time in the Army/ AF in Norway, they want a new insignia or article, the producers come up with a design which is made in a limited production for verification by the various offices. Binned or accepted.


Looking with such eyes at these daggers with the special motto and eagle etc, maybe they were just the same, ie Production Samples for approval by the authorities, and someone just said -No, Try again.


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Sorry, Trigger, but they are not trial production models at all.

They are not made on the machines or by the methods that will make production models.They are often made slightly differently to test the viability of different proposed features.

I say this because before I retired I worked a good part of my career in product development for Caterpillar Inc.

Dave

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I think the best example of this Dave, is the copper scabbard body we see on Eickhorn SA prototypes! Clearly too soft and thus, replaced with steel for standard production. Trigger, I think what you describe is exactly right here ("It happens all the time in the Army/ AF in Norway, they want a new insignia or article, the producers come up with a design which is made in a limited production for verification by the various offices. Binned or accepted."). The photos showing these in wear were likely given to a few generals for this purpose and maybe as a sign of favor? We will likely never know who received them, although the photos all show Gruppenfuhrer I believe.

I hear both arguments, but I like prototype Type I (prototype motto) and Type II (standard motto).


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NO... These are not prototypes by any stretch of the imagination.. (if period)
For those of us who are in the trade ( I own tool and die shop) A prototype is just that a concept piece... A mock up {BEFORE AND A STRESS BEFORE!! A LIMITED NUMBER ARE MADE FOR VERIFICATION}...
An original model on which something is patterned.. Many times a totally hand made or machined one off parts..,
The word prototype does not belong on these daggers what ever they are..
Who said the copper was to soft???? Just a uneducated opinion?? IT WAS TOO EXPENSIVE... from a manufacture point of view..

I have made many prototype parts at my business.. And as I said for those who UNDERSTAND THE PRODUCTION PROCESS PROTOTYPES ARE NOT 10 ,50,100, PARTS.
Now from there you may go to a short run of parts they are inspected and if they pass inspection (certs some time required) than you go into production..
If these daggers are period at the very BEST they are just a short (small run of PRODUCTION pieces..)

Collectors , dealers who call these prototypes should look the word up in a industrial trade dictionary.....
I hope this drives it home enough for the arm chair prototype experts..
THERE ARE A FEW DOCUMENTED REAL PROTOTYPE DAGGERS AND SWORDS OUT THERE BUT VERY RARE AND SOME PRONE TO BE FAKES.
THAN YOU HAVE THE DOCUMENTED ONE OFF PRESENTATION AND EXPOSITION PIECES.. THESE ARE ANOTHER CATEGORY THAT I COLLECT..
DAVE UNDERSTANDS BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE TRADE.. MANY LAYMEN DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE TERM PROTOTYPE AND BY SOME OF THE POSTS ITS SEEMS WISHFUL THINKING . THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND HERE.. IT IS BLACK AND WHITE.. NO ROOM FOR DEBATE.

Last edited by DAMAST; 03/21/2020 12:25 AM.
DAMAST #346023 03/21/2020 01:21 AM
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Came n a little strong but basic stuff..

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Here is the Merian Webster definition-

Definition of prototype
1 : an original model on which something is patterned : ARCHETYPE
2 : an individual that exhibits the essential features of a later type
3 : a standard or typical example
4 : a first full-scale and usually functional form of a new type or design of a construction


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