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Glad you wrote and I'm absolutely ready to take your apoligize.
I prefere discuss as friends instead start useless wars.
That said I agree a discussion face to face would be much more easier and faster, but we can't...

About your answer on post #345528 (Eg. the "signs" in post #345525) I disagree. The reason is quite simple: show us another die struck ring, with all those scooping marks. They (scooping marks) are totally useless, and they need an enormous waste of time to be made. Furthermore the hand finish on rings is sometimes so deep, that with a hand burin would take really an incredible waste of time. And this is absolutely a nonsense if you made a die struck/die cast piece! Die stricking, as die casting, are made to have a finished item in hand, not an item that needs hours and hours of work! Those hand made scooping marks were made for another reason, and you can find the answer ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY if you find a '30 style ring without any hand working on it. If you see it, then you immediately understand when and why those scooping marks were made. And the answer is: they were not made by a burin, nor "Tremblieren" as you said (anyway feel free to post a "Tremblieren" engraving on a ring like those we see on TK rings, so we all can see what you mean).
I can also add another thing: the analysys made with SEM clearly indicate those were NOT burin/chisels scooping marks made on metal. And this is another important point.

About the answers to the questions I made I'm 100% sure there are no explanations that fit with the die striking/die casting theories.
I know the methods used the Third Reich era, they are all written in period sources (as I showed when I replied to Hapur and his stattement about "the only method used by germans"). Die striking and die casting used female dies that have an unvariable width and thickness. It is totally uncompatible with cutting a part of the external design (leaves and runes) as we see in some rings.

Exactly as it is absolutely impossible to obtain round flaws, or round protusions where the die hit the metal straight (and "cut" it). This is very simple to uderstand.

See the following pictures: what you see is impossible to obtain with a die struck process. Otherwise I'm ready to see other die struck items with round protusions like those I showed.
Usually if we see flaws like those in a ring, we would immediately say "cast fake"!

And believe me, this is only the very, very beginning. There is so much info I can't share here, that only half of them would be enough to dismiss EVERYTHING we thought to know about these rings.


I also think collectors should know how these rings were made and that is correct to share the new discoveries.

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Gaspare Offline OP
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We are men here, language barriers sometimes get taken as insults. Sometimes it is just frustration that leads to not being able to explain and it seems like an insult..
I have great respect for Wotan and Antonio,,,and the rest of the members here. This can be tough camp. We can be opinionated but like I said we are men and can take it. We all have the same passion here,,collecting 3rd reich jewelry..

- OK,,We have a problem with the HR. For many YEARS Don Boyle has said they are die struck. For years he's said he'd never certify a HR without seeing it in hand.. The 2nd we know,,he has certified HRs without seeing them in hand. The first,,it seems he has certified HRs that are not die struck. Dons book was revolutionary for the time and still has some great info in it but clearly we need something to go with the new generation of collectors.

Most aficionados go with,,'hey most 3rd reich rings were from a die and so why not the HR'. Well, JR, our CZ Rep members, Antonio and others believe they are not die struck. And,,Antonio has been going to great lengths to explain without giving away his work from his book project. There are still questions. but so far only Antonio has been trying to show why his opinion is the way..

Guys,,I know the counterfeiters read these forums. It doesn't mean we stop,,it means we get better. IF no new info about the HR comes out the market will be dead. No one will want these things. There will be HR with Dons certs that look struck and HRs with certs that the Hr is obviously cast. Things must change if the market is ever to be trusted again. Antonio has just shown some interesting photos. His last group of photos also interesting. So far no one is stepping up to explain or refute with any kind of proof. Time will tell gentleman...,G.

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I think rings was made something like mine rings , here https://youtu.be/aIHF9P-9fwU
stages of my production (casting in the mold is not removed, because it?s very inconvenient to remove, but I?ll remove it later too)
Idiots setuation, I cant correct insert link, just make copy and past link

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Evgenyi, that method cannot explain many points I already mentioned. One for example is the famous distance between leaves and ring band edge.

Anyway, please pay attention of what follows, I'd like to share a couple of other interesting points that were never investigated before (actually nothing on these rings was ever investigated to be honest!).

We know the famous "flaws" on runic panels.

1) Focus on the "Sig" runic panel, where, under the rune is "missing" a piece of metal. We know this flaw "appeared" in 1940 (I know the exact date when it appeared). We know the die used was the same from 1938 to 1944. So: if the ring was die struck or die cast, how can it be possible this?
Here's Hapur video on making a die struck ring. The die is "female", and a protusion on the die makes a recess on the ring (like the one under the "Sig" rune). Very simple.
But if we know the die used was always the same, you clearly understand it is not possible to add any piece of metal on it to generate a protusion on the die with the aim of creating a recess on the ring.

2) Another point: look at the pictures below, smudges are visible even in worn rings. But if these rings were die struck, who was that idiot engraver that made a steel die with all those useless smudges (typical of casting process), instead making a well made (and much more easy to do!!!) design (like Hapur did for example!)?
Have you ever seen a die struck ring or badge, or item, with those smudges? If you have, please, show it to me too.

Food for brain guys... If we really want investigate these rings, we have to stop thinking as we did before. wink

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my video shouldn?t explain anything, it?s just information, for those who do not particularly understand or have not seen this process, I?m not going to wonder how and what was done until there are documents on how it was done, the production nuances will remain in doubt, but I I?m sure of one thing that it was a casting method, so far I see the arguments in favor of this method and the most important one is that all rings and skulls have differences, traces of manual refinement are visible, which are not possible in case of ring champagne

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Wow, all I can say is that IF, if that '43' ring shown right above was shown around there wouldn't have been one person that would have said it was authentic!!
My have things changed! . Really hoping Antonios project will put some conclusions out there!

Evgeniy,, your reproduction HR is a beauty.. So is Hapurs in its own righ..t. 2 really nice looking copy rings [probably the 2 best out there!] and both made totally different!

* Have a good Memorial Day guys!!!!, fly those flags!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Wow, all I can say is that IF, if that '43' ring shown right above was shown around there wouldn't have been one person that would have said it was authentic!!


I agree with you my friend.
But actually one person at least said that is possible to obtain a result like that with die striking: Ric Ferrari.

Just for fun I post a screenshot of a 2 years ago discussion.

I would like to read some Ric's answers again...

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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini
Originally Posted by Gaspare
Wow, all I can say is that IF, if that '43' ring shown right above was shown around there wouldn't have been one person that would have said it was authentic!!


I agree with you my friend.
But actually one person at least said that is possible to obtain a result like that with die striking: Ric Ferrari.

Just for fun I post a screenshot of a 2 years ago discussion.

I would like to read some Ric's answers again...


Hello Antonio,

thank you to promo my position by quoting all my past statements.

I appreciate your effort to prove casting theory is correct, but it seems many collectors disagree with you and they still consider it absurd (me included).

So far nobody is able to definitively prove the actual way Gahr produced SSHr, but if flooding Forums with tons of microscope pics, Xray analysis, lab reports, ecc. may help you to promo your theory?.that's fine with me, but I still remain on die press theory.

Ric Ferrari

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Originally Posted by Ric Ferrari
Hello Antonio,

thank you to promo my position by quoting all my past statements.

I appreciate your effort to prove casting theory is correct, but it seems many collectors disagree with you and they still consider it absurd (me included).


I've never mention anything about "my" theory (that, I repeat, is not "my", it is simply what real data say).
Many? You and Hapur it's not so "many".... It's only two, and two that posted nothing but invented methods or fake statements (see posts above). Not really something "serious" or believable.

Originally Posted by Ric Ferrari
So far nobody is able to definitively prove the actual way Gahr produced SSHr, but if flooding Forums with tons of microscope pics, Xray analysis, lab reports, ecc. may help you to promo your theory?.that's fine with me, but I still remain on die press theory.
Ric Ferrari


So far YOU are not able to tell a single word about your theory.

At the beginning of this discussion you said:

Originally Posted by Ric Ferrari
two opinions/theories (stamped or cast) are still on the table and no definitive proofs supporting one of them have been provided.
That being said, the discussion is still open to any serious contribute.....


Originally Posted by Ric Ferrari
I accept your offer of a serious discussion


So far you NEVER replied to any question. Which kind of serious discussion is this if you don't answer anything?
There are tens of evidences posted in this thread that are uncompatible with the die stricking /die casting theories. Tens you ignored (just to mention one the BIG flaw under the Sig rune, but also this, this, this and much much more - and they are no microscopic pictures, no x-ray, no lab reports - in the case you didn't notice it, they are simply normal pictures and normal questions...).

All these evidences are totally uncompatible with the die striking/die casting theories. And if they are uncompatible, logic and common sense tell us the method used was nor die striking, nor die casting. Quite simple, or not?
But if you think they are compatible, can you tell us how?

You asked for a "serious discussion", so when do we start it?

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Link credit WAF:

Well Antonio has found something interesting.....

https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/fo...rum/11992216-the-totenkopfring-big-fraud

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Link credit WAF:

Well Antonio has found something interesting.....

https://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/fo...rum/11992216-the-totenkopfring-big-fraud

Very interesting, been following that ,

So can we now say Antonio is now the ‘gold standard’ / Authority when it comes to Authenticate honor rings ?

I feel he is , too many doubts and evidence to unfortunately show DB has been authenticating fake honor rings ,

For a ring worth thousands of dollars..

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well, can't speak for him,,but,,I don't think he's doing it to be a authenticator.... It is correct a wrong assumption..

The late great John Pepera also disagreed with Don .. John [with another member] had started his own research by doing metallurgical analysis of the HR. . Unfortunate the affordable 'science' we have available now wasn't there or affordable back then. That and John had other nazi regalia interests so he didn't get much further before he sadly passed away,,but he would have loved all this!..

We'll see what develops and maybe Antonio can give us an update here..

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People are always prone to mistakes, it is better not to set idols for themselves, so as not to be disappointed later, the collective opinion (of experts) is always better (as it seems to me) in determining authenticity, so it is better not to elevate someone to the rank of "god". As we say, do not make yourself an idol. It is always better to do your homework and study the subject of purchase before buying something, and not spend money you do not know for what.

Last edited by Evgeniy; 12/19/2020 09:45 AM.
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I like to give credit where credit is due , Antonio has so much for the Hobby , and sacrificed friendships for the cause ,

Of course I agree , We should all study these rings with what evidence has been put forward , and our own observations,

And acknowledge the individuals who have made not moved with the times ?

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Thanks "The_Collector" for your kind words, really appreciated, but, as I always said, I don't want to be an "expert".
The best way is everyone of us can reach his own knowledge, that until today was (even if a total fake one!) "owned" by few, the "Gods".
When everyone has his knowledge, then we can discuss togheter, and that's the target of my efforts. Discuss togheter, where no one is more important than another. If there are no "experts", the knowledge is democratic. And this is the real victory.

If you simply read this thread you can clearly see there is no "discussion", because those following the "Gods" learned from them to obey, and the result is they are not able to put toghether a logical explanation and they need to invent absurd theories. This happens because knowledge was not democratic.

For those interested in TK rings I can tell you what I did: I applied the reverse engineering after I collected the first data obtained with comparisons - then I made some deep analysys.
But you no need microscopes or high technologies, you simply have to compare rings. This is the most basical procedure, but no one has ever made it. In decades I've NEVER seen a comparison made in a decent way. Have you ever asked yourself why? Because if you start to study and compare rings, in few days you can dismiss everything what the "experts" told you about them. The answers of the "experts" in this thread are the best proof.

And yes, I sacrificed friends, but I'm happy with this, since they clearly were not friends. A friend is open to discuss, an "enemy" doesn't want to do it. A smart guy is open to change his mind, an "expert" not, because he should admit he was wrong and if he was wrong, he was not an "expert".

Have a great Christmas guys!

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Thanks, Antonio

Happy Christmas to you too.

Having a flexible mind - the ability to question and to evaluate new info - is necessary.

Dave

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