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Lartiste ,,there are ways to resize and not lose detail and size.. It is posted in the help forum. Seems you have done it as your photo is fine. Thank you.


1,,seeing that photo is very telling.. So is that considered a 'Good' HR? Agreement by most anyway? For me not knowing,,I would say absolutely that it is not a die pressed piece...

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
So is that considered a 'Good' HR? Agreement by most anyway?


You will find the same "mistakes" on the swastika as in the other rings shown - blue dots show two of them . And it is certainly 7mm wide if Lartiste shows it here...



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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Lartiste ,,there are ways to resize and not lose detail and size.. It is posted in the help forum. Seems you have done it as your photo is fine. Thank you.


1,,seeing that photo is very telling.. So is that considered a 'Good' HR? Agreement by most anyway? For me not knowing,,I would say absolutely that it is not a die pressed piece...


This is ring from former Martin Toman's collection. More photos of the ring here: GIES RING

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I see his HRs have Dons paper.. Is Martin of the opinion that they are die pressed?

If you know him well maybe forward his this discussion. He of course is more than welcome to join in here as it would be great to read his opinions..

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
I see his HRs have Dons paper.. Is Martin of the opinion that they are die pressed?

If you know him well maybe forward his this discussion. He of course is more than welcome to join in here as it would be great to read his opinions..



Martin described both methods in his book and says that he is open to arguments. But his conclusions are that most probably the method is lost wax casting (trees). He was demonstrating the fact e.g. on ADAMIK ring saying, that in his opinion the ring in question lacks the depth of detail from the beginning and jeweler had to heat up the ring hand finished the detail. He is showing few more rings to demonstrate heavy hand tooling.

Also he is showing further deformations and is saying that it is the result of wax deformation before it was attached to the tree. He does not think, that it is possible the same with the die, but is careful to dismiss the theory straight away. Saying, that it is low probable.

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yes, these marks of cutting, with characteristic notches are present in my opinion on all the rings, I thought these tracks were already seen by everyone and paid attention to them
it is these traces that speak in favor of manual completion of all rings !

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Sorry gents, I can t hold back any more. Imho there is so much ignorance, misinterpretation and overlooking of facts in these TKR-manufacture threads that it is simply breathtaking.

Eg. the "signs" in post #345525 do show -by experts and skilled workers- well known "Tremblieren" (this is a technical term from engravers) which either can be done by purpose or develops by chance and has not the least to do with a casting process.

One of the cadinal errors for sure is to know much too few about the certain time and it s sense and the philosophy of producers but try to tear out conclusions to find facts about the production process by interpreting certain traces - commonly on an at least slightly up to heavy worn rings which leads to glaring misinterpretations.
I know, original and truely unworn rings are not to get on each street corner. But only such ones can possibly give the CHANCE to study what exactly has happened with a piece during production and how it has been delivered.
I wonder how much of you all ever has seen the noninterchangeable ring wrapping paper unique by the Gahr firm. Or have had in hands the paperbag in wich a ring has been delivered by the Gahr firm and which datas are mentioned on such a bag.

I do really like those collectors/experts who yesterday did stand for a kind of die stamping, today represent the opinion of a casting proces and tomorrow think of any unrealistic centrifuge, galvanic or multiple part manufactring process. Yes, we all do learn every day and knowledge can expand and nothing is written in stone! But I for myself do ask how hard such experts truely did/do examine and understand the TKRings therefore to be able to change their opinions in such a drastic way. And I wonder what will come next.
I would not write this all if imho there would not be a certain danger in and behind these disorientations: To scatter uncertainty so that good done fakes which appear on the stage could be looked as originals.

Just my 2 ct.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Antonio even went out of his way in the WAF.
Only the politeness was missing more often.
I found his results very conclusive.

Reasonable doubts outweigh old dogmas.

But everyone can believe what he wants.

It doesn't matter how something was made. Counterfeits do not get any better and they are not difficult to identify if you know the originals.

Suum Cuique ...

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Wotan, I did not get the meaning of your comment. You can see more what I showed here: THE RINGS WERE WAX CASTED theory. It is the theory of Martin Toman, fellow collector who self published extensive book with many photos of 26 or how many rings.

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Hello 12472 and lartiste, thank you for your comments. Unfortunately I am not able to lead lenghty debates with a lot of special technical expressons as English is not my first language!

@ 12472: It is my point too that everyone can believe what he wants and as said, we learn each day and everyone of us can make discoveries or mistakes. But ignoring facts perhaps is not so wise...
Contrary imho it is VERY important how such an item is made. If we do accept eg. a casting theory we also have to accept ALL casting traces on a ring - and these are, to my best knowledge up to now, more the traces of fakes. How could we say/detect "this trace is a manufacture casting trace" or "this trace is a fake casting trace"??? How could we differ a monday morning GAHR production from a possible superfake?

@ lartiste: Owning 26 rings or more is no real qualification if you can drew the wrong concusions out of one ring and out of 26 rings if you see what you want to see.

As said just my 2ct and like 12472 states, everyone can believe what he wants.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Originally Posted by wotan
Unfortunately I am not able to lead lenghty debates with a lot of special technical expressons as English is not my first language!


Is also very difficult for me. Are you the "Wotan" from the Militarafundforum?

Originally Posted by wotan
But ignoring facts perhaps is not so wise...


I agree!
Until about 2015, I assumed that these rings had been pressed because I had blindly relied on the general opinion.
It was only through Antonio's pictures and explanations that I came to the conclusion that these rings show clear traces of casting and that there are not even two rings of the same type.

Originally Posted by wotan
Contrary imho it is VERY important how such an item is made. If we do accept eg. a casting theory we also have to accept ALL casting traces on a ring


No way!
It is not the point that they were cast. it is the point of how they were cast. Copying this 1: 1 is anything but easy.

Originally Posted by wotan
How could we differ a monday morning GAHR production from a possible superfake?


It may be that there are rings that are not as successful as comparison pieces. Maybe this applies to the "Achaz" ring?
The source is very important to me personally.
I do not trust her and there are reasonable doubts - I do not buy there!
I don't trust her, but there is no doubt about the originality - I might buy.
If I trust the source, for example because I excavated the ring myself, I can tolerate any doubts.

Regards,
Dierk


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Some good comments Wotan... I for one will say outright,, That at one time I believed the HR was die stamped. While admiring them I did not collect them nor did much research if any in to them.. 30 years ago we had Don.. Like Wittman&Johnson for daggers, Stump for awards,Hritz for SS cloth and etc etc.

What changed my opinion recently was a few things. 1. being some of the articles I saw in the period trade guild booklets. 2, then really taking a look at one on a cheapie [but effective] pc microscope. 3, exchanging some emails with Antonio.. I will admit,, I don;t know exactly how the HR was made. But I'll tell you for sure they weren't made from one die chocked up in a press!

So now its 2020. We are global,,scientific research is just a click away.. *Wotan if I think I;m understanding you correctly is: What is our standard! Are we researching in to a HR to determine how its made while it being a SuperFake?! Provenance,provenance provenance!

I would really like to thank you all for participating. We really are truly global, different languages,dialects,cultures,,,,and we're doing good brothers!

I do look forward to new postings here. Everything has been very interesting!!.,G.

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Originally Posted by 12472
Are you the "Wotan" from the Militarafundforum?

Hello 12472, simply "no". Not all what is nicknamed "wotan" IS truely wotan wink but I think to remember having been the first one grin.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Generally, concerning the ring manufature debate: I have the feeling (corresponding with my personal observations and the announcement of collectors) that the casting ideas (and all following ideas) were mainly upcoming because of unlucky (I don t assume that it is done by purpose) misinterpretation of traces on TKRs. Unfortunately -so this could happen- on worn and heavy worn rings.
Eg. I have had the luck to own and examine a ring with a die press failur (yes, I am a follower of the die press/stamp manufacturing proces, not without reason) - I have not seen another one up to now. Concerning the failur you could clearly see with a magnifying glass (no microscope needed) that such failur could only occur due to a die press process and there was proof(!) that it did occur in the GAHR firm.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Originally Posted by wotan

Eg. I have had the luck to own and examine a ring with a die press failur (yes, I am a follower of the die press/stamp manufacturing proces, not without reason) - I have not seen another one up to now. Concerning the failur you could clearly see with a magnifying glass (no microscope needed) that such failur could only occur due to a die press process and there was proof(!) that it did occur in the GAHR firm.
Regards,



are there still photos of it?

Would certainly be more convincing - then we could continue to discuss this object.

Regards,
Dierk

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Hello everyone!

First, I would like to say thank you to those who invited me to this discussion.
If I may offer my opinions on this subject, (I am a supporter of die striking, although I personally believe that they were "pressed" in such a way that would be more like a forging, or perhaps an in-between, stamping/forging type method). I do not believe that the originals were made from liquid metal casting. The major problem with this whole debate, imo, is the lack of proper evidence. All of the best fakes out there are absolutely cast and these high end fakes are everywhere. So, if we are examining fakes to start with, thinking that they are original, then we will of course, come to believe that they are all cast because 99% of all TK rings out there are cast, and are of course, fake. Most of you would be surprised as to how many fake rings there are that were shown as original in books, posted on websites for sale, and come with COAs, etc.

Anyway, over the next few days, I would like to try to take some better photos of my vet aquired original near mint TK ring and post some comparison photos here along with some of these high end fakes that I have mentioned. Hopefully, this might help in this debate in some way. Again, thanks for the invite, and I hope that we can all have a friendly and productive debate here. I am not a fan of how rude people are in other forums over this topic, but this forum seems to be calm and friendly. I am open minded and I do read and respect everyone's opinion, whichever side you are supporting.

Thanks again!

Chris

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Well, hello again, Chris,

Welcome back. It's been a while.

Regards
Dave

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Thanks, Dave!

Chris

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Hello Chris,

glad to read you here on GDC, I'm sure that friendly environment guaranted by our mod Gaspare, will help us to improve our knowledge on such Amazing subject.

Ric

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Originally Posted by wotan
Hello 12472 and lartiste, thank you for your comments. Unfortunately I am not able to lead lenghty debates with a lot of special technical expressons as English is not my first language!

@ 12472: It is my point too that everyone can believe what he wants and as said, we learn each day and everyone of us can make discoveries or mistakes. But ignoring facts perhaps is not so wise...
Contrary imho it is VERY important how such an item is made. If we do accept eg. a casting theory we also have to accept ALL casting traces on a ring - and these are, to my best knowledge up to now, more the traces of fakes. How could we say/detect "this trace is a manufacture casting trace" or "this trace is a fake casting trace"??? How could we differ a monday morning GAHR production from a possible superfake?

@ lartiste: Owning 26 rings or more is no real qualification if you can drew the wrong concusions out of one ring and out of 26 rings if you see what you want to see.

As said just my 2ct and like 12472 states, everyone can believe what he wants.

Regards,


Owning 26 rings and provide to public detailed photos of all of them is more than anyone else did for this hobby. May be Crag Gottlieb did similar job, but the photos are less detailed and mostly there is less photos.

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Originally Posted by wotan
Generally, concerning the ring manufature debate: I have the feeling (corresponding with my personal observations and the announcement of collectors) that the casting ideas (and all following ideas) were mainly upcoming because of unlucky (I don t assume that it is done by purpose) misinterpretation of traces on TKRs. Unfortunately -so this could happen- on worn and heavy worn rings.
Eg. I have had the luck to own and examine a ring with a die press failur (yes, I am a follower of the die press/stamp manufacturing proces, not without reason) - I have not seen another one up to now. Concerning the failur you could clearly see with a magnifying glass (no microscope needed) that such failur could only occur due to a die press process and there was proof(!) that it did occur in the GAHR firm.
Regards,


Can you provide photos of the ring or at least to mention name and date mentioned on the ring?

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Good to see you Chris,,been a long time!

"The major problem with this whole debate, imo, is the lack of proper evidence. All of the best fakes out there are absolutely cast and these high end fakes are everywhere. So, if we are examining fakes to start with, thinking that they are original, then we will of course, come to believe that they are all cast because 99% of all TK rings out there are cast, and are of course, fake. Most of you would be surprised as to how many fake rings there are that were shown as original in books, posted on websites for sale, and come with COAs, etc."

Chris,,this is what I was mentioning,,,where is and which one is the true standard?

Wotan,, is it a early or late pattern.?

Those that go for the die pressed method can any explain the photos I added to on page 10?

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Good to see you Chris,,been a long time!

"The major problem with this whole debate, imo, is the lack of proper evidence. All of the best fakes out there are absolutely cast and these high end fakes are everywhere. So, if we are examining fakes to start with, thinking that they are original, then we will of course, come to believe that they are all cast because 99% of all TK rings out there are cast, and are of course, fake. Most of you would be surprised as to how many fake rings there are that were shown as original in books, posted on websites for sale, and come with COAs, etc."

Chris,,this is what I was mentioning,,,where is and which one is the true standard?

Wotan,, is it a early or late pattern.?

Those that go for the die pressed method can any explain the photos I added to on page 10?



The problem of this is that there is no ring with absolutely clear provenance. Maybe there are some in archives (e.g. confiscated to those sentenced to death) but who knows whether there are still the same rings or someone changed them in all those years ... .

In general provenance is always question of trust. And without the clear provenance there is no proof that the ring in question is good and majority of rest is bad (or how otherwise do you want to prove that)?

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Hello!

A question arises anyway (but I am afraid we will remain in a state of stagnation):

Are there any traces of processing - that allow the conclusion that the Totenkopfringe was pressed?
And if - what could they look like?

Some arguments have been shown that they were cast:

- There are no two completely identical rings, even if they are from the same year
- The edges of the leaves, the runes etc. are very jagged under enlargement
- Pores and blow holes for which there is no other reasonable explanation
- Casting is a common practice for goldsmiths at the time. German textbooks for goldsmiths do not mention the method "die strucking"

The previous arguments for the method "die strucking":

- It's faster and cheaper to make the rings like this
- The industrially manufactured "PP" - rings were manufactured in this way
- Don Boyle believes this
- The ring collectors have agreed on this


Are there any more tangible arguments, any very clear sign?

Best regards,
Dierk

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Lartiste

Your statement is very true.
But not just for rings.
Every item in our collection falls in the same realm.
If they made them 80 years ago, they can make them today.
Thank you gents for a great study,
Ed

PS. GO CHIEFS!!!

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Originally Posted by lartiste

Can you provide photos of the ring or at least to mention name and date mentioned on the ring?


Hello, I did own the ring long time ago therefore unfortunately no relevant pics. But I did study the ring excessive and there is no doubt this trace could ONLY be caused by a cold die stamping process. A part of one of the runes symbols had been really torn out (obviously when the die had been withdrawn). The metal structure of the remaining base material and it s surroundings, studied with a 10 times magnificent glass, did let no other conclusion. This certain failur in all it s structure could happen NO WAY by any casting process. And as said, the origin of the ring (out of the family of the former wearer), the whole condition (really! unworn) and especially the exeptional finish did show that the failur did happen "in house" at GAHR. As I did own the ring for several years and I did study it again and again you can take to the banc what I stated. Or simply leave it.

Also @Gaspare: It has been a ring from 43 therefore very late. Overall it has been a "textbook" (how I hate this expression, especially in the connex with TKRs) ring with no other abnormalities.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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yeah Ed they did it!, and after 50 yrs and playing like that they deserve it!

OK, some really good observations and questions.. Wotan,,yes 'textbook' no longer is!. Wotan, even a not so good photo,, maybe something showing even one of the rune panels!

Sticking with the 2nd pattern HR, lets start with *what is not a provenance:
" I bought it at a flea market 20 years ago"
"Never seen a copy as good as this"
Dug. Ground dug is not a provenance.
"Got it in a grouping and everything else was good"
A Detliv Nieman ,D. Boyle, C. Gottleib, etc. Authentication. Sorry, mean no disrespect while maybe good years ago there seems to be problems with them now.

Anyone have another 'not a provenance' please feel free to add here..

Harder still is: *What is a good provenance.
Acquired directly from a German Vet who had received one. [chance of being fake[?]]
A traceable 'Captain Black' ring.
Acquired from a Allied Vet [or the family] thats traceable back to the 50s.

hey I'm running out of [goods]!! Wasn't there an example of a couple 2nd patterns that belonged to a infamous personality that came in a grouping from the family a few years ago??

Members please add to either or..., Thanks ,G.

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From the nephew of the SS officer, comes this group.

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nice! , So from a German vets family, they always had it and hopefully not too many middlemen..

* Would you mind letting us know year,, posting some photos of the rune panels, seam, bit of engraving.. We really got to establish a standard. This could be a start for its date ..

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Originally Posted by wotan
Originally Posted by lartiste

Can you provide photos of the ring or at least to mention name and date mentioned on the ring?


Hello, I did own the ring long time ago therefore unfortunately no relevant pics. But I did study the ring excessive and there is no doubt this trace could ONLY be caused by a cold die stamping process. A part of one of the runes symbols had been really torn out (obviously when the die had been withdrawn). The metal structure of the remaining base material and it s surroundings, studied with a 10 times magnificent glass, did let no other conclusion. This certain failur in all it s structure could happen NO WAY by any casting process. And as said, the origin of the ring (out of the family of the former wearer), the whole condition (really! unworn) and especially the exeptional finish did show that the failur did happen "in house" at GAHR. As I did own the ring for several years and I did study it again and again you can take to the banc what I stated. Or simply leave it.

Also @Gaspare: It has been a ring from 43 therefore very late. Overall it has been a "textbook" (how I hate this expression, especially in the connex with TKRs) ring with no other abnormalities.

Regards,


Do you remember name and/or date, please? I would like try to find out photos of the ring to understand properly what are you speaking about.

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
yeah Ed they did it!, and after 50 yrs and playing like that they deserve it!

OK, some really good observations and questions.. Wotan,,yes 'textbook' no longer is!. Wotan, even a not so good photo,, maybe something showing even one of the rune panels!

Sticking with the 2nd pattern HR, lets start with *what is not a provenance:
" I bought it at a flea market 20 years ago"
"Never seen a copy as good as this"
Dug. Ground dug is not a provenance.
"Got it in a grouping and everything else was good"
A Detliv Nieman ,D. Boyle, C. Gottleib, etc. Authentication. Sorry, mean no disrespect while maybe good years ago there seems to be problems with them now.

Anyone have another 'not a provenance' please feel free to add here..

Harder still is: *What is a good provenance.
Acquired directly from a German Vet who had received one. [chance of being fake[?]]
A traceable 'Captain Black' ring.
Acquired from a Allied Vet [or the family] thats traceable back to the 50s.

hey I'm running out of [goods]!! Wasn't there an example of a couple 2nd patterns that belonged to a infamous personality that came in a grouping from the family a few years ago??

Members please add to either or..., Thanks ,G.


Let me be devils advocate and also to offer other point of view. First of all it is way more complicated then Vet bring back is provenance and dug out is not provenance.

First of all I would like to offer short history introduction. I live in Czech republic, one of the latest places to be liberated by allies and in addition place where also was stick line among western allies and Russians. The only goal of all Germans in the territory was to escape to western allies, therefore they were trying to fight their way to west or simply they were trying to escape. Latest bigger fight ended on May 12, 1945. Also please note, that nearly any and all German nationals were displaced to Germany after the war. This all means that in April/May Germans were throwing away all property which could connect them with party, different organisations and army.

I can offer simple statistic of the appearance of these magic rings. During past 25 years I am aware of 40 - 50 rings appeared in the Czech republic of which 2 were attic finds, 3 were accidental finds from late 40?s, early 50?s and all remaining are dug out rings.

I understand that it is difficult for you to trust to dug out rings. I remember that 10 or so years ago someone played a game with members of this board and was trying to ask for verification of alleged dug out rings which were in fact cheap polish copies.

But Vets bring backs? I was always suspicious concerning Vet bring backs. May be because it is unnatural in here. And even you had to see alleged Vet bring backs which were at least partly infected. I do not see many ways how to verify it properly.

In both instances you have to understand the topic to avoid to be burned.

But to avoid sceptical conclusion, I would like to point out model provenance of the ring and it is Schwarz?s ring provenance, which is well known and even confirmed by previous owner here.



Jan

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Hello!

@ lartiste: absolute approval!

I have complete trust in things that I have dug up myself, especially when the other things that have been found also fit.
But I don't expect everyone else to trust it - you have to be there when the ring is dug up.


In Germany there have been cases where high-quality medals and badges were secretly exchanged that were still in the possession of the respective soldier or relatives.
This can also have happened with things that were captured and came to the USA. 75 years is a long time...


I think the ring has to speak for itself. There is no origin that will be universally recognized.

Best regards,
Dierk

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The treasures ring [Schwarz] is a 1st pattern, which I believe is a separate animal completely..

As far as Allied Vet provenance at least one is fully documented. A Sgt Black and his unit was stationed at Wewelsburg directly after the war and found a large hoard of HRs. He gave one out to each man until he ran out.... There are also more than one photo of a US vet wearing a HR... Something like JR explaining his ring came from the family that also had the mans awards and personal effects and there weren't any middle men is also fine.

As far as a dug HR. I mean no disrespect and don't want to get in to it here but my wifes cousins were some of the 1st diggers the very first year the USSR broke up, and I have been with them many times,,and I'll repeat,,a HR being dug is not a provenance in by itself.. I'm not saying its not possible..- We all like to say the piece must stand on its own.. And it should..

SO, ok,,,,this is open to all - , lets skip a year or so to make it easy,,can someone show a good condition HR a 42, or a 44 that can be considered a standard that others can be compared to?

To those that have a lot of HRs,,or have had a lot,, You have Dons CoA,,,he states they are die struck,,but many display differences within the same year, AND some display cast characteristics and some do not!
I'm beginning to see that the 2nd pattern is a problem. That unless we have a standard members we are going in circles..


Last edited by Gaspare; 02/08/2020 05:37 AM.
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* Members, I'd like to publicly thank 'lartiste' [Jan] for a very nice act of kindness he did towards me.: Thank you kind sir..

Next I have had the opportunity to check out a book our member 'Equirhodont' [Martin Toman] from the Czech republic wrote in 2017 called 'SS- Totenkopfring'..

A huge undertaking and a gigantic book. Hardcover, with wonderful glossy high res photos so clear it feels you can jump right in.. He shows HRs from every year. In great detail.. He discusses the cast vs die pressed method, shows documents, boxes everything. Written in Czechoslovakian but even someone like myself who's barely proficient in the English language wink can get the grasp of whats going on it it!I am still digesting it and wlll review more of it here for the membership soon. Martin , it would be great to hear from you here..

- So, are we really at a standstill? I am for sure , not sure of anything at this point. So lets continue to keep it with the 2nd pattern HR for now.

Something I've always noticed as I'm sure many of you have..
Looking at the skull,,the Sig rune to the left. This rune has the famous 'die flaw' at the bottom... Is it safe to say these 2nd pat HRs , 41 to 44,,,they ALL have this flaw..
*So,,if this is a lost wax investment cast,,,how come it wasn't fixed with the next batch of rings!!. It would be easily done!

please, I invite all the membership whether you own a HR or not to participate, come in with your own theory, answer a question, ask one, make a statement!
Thank you...., Gaspare

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If question about wax model - IMO answer very simple: just was made many more wax models at once and molded rings (for example 20-100 rings with the same deffect), then was made other part of was model(where may be was fix it deffect)

Last edited by Evgeniy; 02/11/2020 11:20 AM.
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The rings are small to begin with, and the flaws even smaller yet. On top of that, imperfections were easily covered up by the burnishing process. Only a collector looking at these SSTK's 80 years later with a loop, would it become obvious to. To Gahr, and certainly the recipient, it was a non-factor to go in and fix the irregularities with in the mould. That rune which Gaspar speaks is loaded with the most flaws of any of the other panels. There are probably 10 flaws on it alone, that can be viewed to different degrees according to how the liquid silver flowed into the mould and were picked up by each ring that was made.

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Hello!

Originally Posted by Gaspare

Looking at the skull,,the Sig rune to the left. This rune has the famous 'die flaw' at the bottom... Is it safe to say these 2nd pat HRs , 41 to 44,,,they ALL have this flaw..




I think that just shows that the wax models for the 40s rings were all casted from one mold (rubber or metal).
They are similar in many respects, but never as identical as two coins to each other.

Silver is very soft. It should be possible to emboss a large number of rings before a die is worn out. But there are not even two identical rings.

Best regards,
Dierk

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Originally Posted by 12472
Hello!

Originally Posted by Gaspare

Looking at the skull,,the Sig rune to the left. This rune has the famous 'die flaw' at the bottom... Is it safe to say these 2nd pat HRs , 41 to 44,,,they ALL have this flaw..




I think that just shows that the wax models for the 40s rings were all casted from one mold (rubber or metal).
They are similar in many respects, but never as identical as two coins to each other.

Silver is very soft. It should be possible to emboss a large number of rings before a die is worn out. But there are not even two identical rings.

Best regards,
Dierk



that is why I came to the conclusion that the rings were cast, not stamped

just look at this shot
in the skull we are can see many holes, they are only possible with the casting method

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Hello Evgenij,

with all due respect, I've never checked an original ring in hands showing such porosity??.

Ric

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Evgenij,

btw, I was looking forward to have your nice repro in hands also to compare it with a SSHr original and after comparison I confirm my opinion : Gahr didn't make them by die casting.

Ric

Last edited by Ric Ferrari; 02/16/2020 09:09 AM.
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