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Good old friend and member here Jan from the CZ Rep. recently emailed me with a strange ground dug find...

He sent me a YouTube video and some photos of the find.. Seems at a dig [CZ Rep?] where they were finding WW2 ordnance and other wartime items that a hoard of unfinished rings were found... They are 2 piece,,dated 1944 and to a mountain troop unit.. I had seen a similar find from Russia several years ..

First the photos of the find:

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So,, you guys are very good. We probably have the best informed and experienced international membership out there concerning rings..

As you can see I have already put some lines showing my concern.. See at first it was thought these were period rings.. Those really in to construction methods of period and postwar rings will be able to see they are not..

First before we even get in to construction method problems lets look at them with common sense.. The rings are dated 1944. Think they were found in the CZ Rep but maybe they were found in Russia or elsewhere in East Europe. So a 44 date. Which means at the very earliest they were designed in late 44. I'd say more than likely early 45.

What do you guys think? With the retreat of nazi units. The hatred of them in the occupied territories,,,who would they be made for? Who would buy or even want them?
- *OK before the next post a few key words you might want to do a search on; Sprue , Lost Wax Cast , Rubber Mold

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The rings we collect are mainly - Commercially made for retail mass produced rings. There is another category, I use the term in my project I call 'Campaign Rings / Hand carved rings'. These are the beloved DAK, Krim, Condor Leg, WestWall wire wound rings.. They are hand made by craftsmen usually locals close to the campaign..
* Lets rule out the dug rings right away from this category. They are not hand made...
Mass produced? yes they appear to be. But certainly not pressed from a die as they will show themselves the ell tale signs of a cast..

The process used in these rings are Lost Wax Cast.. This method didn't come into being until the late 40s, early 50s and in to current times.
It took a model, pressed in to rubber then it got vulcanized. OR, in to sand [sand cast mold]. What you ended up with regardless what method was a wax ring! It could be mounted by the Sprue or by another area..That wax ring had to go thru a process where you ended up with a silver [or gold, or] ring that still needed much finishing.. A long process start to finish, wasted materials etc but 'unskilled labor' could do it..

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Sprue - Look at the dug rings.. You will see a line pointing to a stem on them. That is the Sprue.. Only used in lost wax.. IF you look closely you will also see a fault line around the bands. That is the split from the rubber mold that must be sliced apart to get the metal model out. It them got rubberbanded together and wax was poured in thru the Sprue opening to fill the empty cavity with wax..

This is a rubber mold I have with the wax model and you can still see the Sprue stem on it.. Also a shot of a couple skulls with the Sprue on them,,and how they were mounted by the sprue on to a 'Tree' when doing multiple cast...

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Here is the video Jan sent me of the find.. Some good views of the rings,pedestals,front plates... It's long but you can skip around to the rings find:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Viw...KT_UyGKF_2WIf8RRTrlCM2zXEkKqs5013fKCsheA

Most big casting is done with centrifugal molds, vacuum or pressure assist etc. But the home or small shop craftsmen will still use the pedestal set up to do his work... Looks almost exactly as the old dug find..

In my opinion they are postwar. Maybe some sort of remembrance type ring etc. The method is complicated and not used until after the war.. Not something done in the field, or back of a truck. The 44 date also condemns them. Nothing about them makes sense. That late who would they be for?
No one alive knows the when or why they got buried,,,a good mystery..

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Incredible, great work posting all this G

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Yes, Incredible.

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Hello G.

interesting thread, just a preliminary question :

does anyone recognize this object like a part of something else used by German troops for specific purpose ?

Ric

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Looks to be just a ring still attached to the pouring sprue for a single ring pour.


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Visit us at www.GermanDaggers.com
Contact me at Vern@GermanDaggers.com
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Ric..,

looks like a pedestal. but so many! what are you thinking? - the pedestals have seams/cast lines on them also!

doesn't look like silver,,a zinc? a pot metal?

- this find is gigantic!,, this is barely half....... nothing about this makes sense. this could not have been a 'field operation' or local crafts person,,and why buried way out where....


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G.

we all know some U-Boat crews made their cap badge by themselves, hand working pieces of different metal, so why not the same for field troops ?

Looking at those pieces I think someone decided to realize a good amount of rings by using what he had at the moment to award soldiers belonging to a specific german group.

Btw, I wouldn't personally pay few bucks for one of them and their value is just for the finders, so what's the business for possibly counterfeiters ?

That said, I'm sure someone will try to complete a ring by those ground dug parts to sell it...like the only one complete survived

Ric

P.S. I do not know if they are pedestals or something else, but for sure mass production pieces... so possibly made by iniection molding ?

Probably those german soldiers at that point had something else to think over than realizing their ring, so all material has been buried and forgotten there.

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* Ric, Interesting...

Yes the on board sub or ship made insig/devices. think they used sand cast[?], or cut out from a sheet.. Don't know how many made like that,,20? 50?.. Injection, lost wax, permanent mold etc. still a lengthy process not a field made operation, or something done on the run!

Man the scale of this dug operation was huge! Just to finish that ring you'd have to - cut off the ring from pedestal,,finish it by hand,, Finish the cartouche plate then affix on either by solder or screw/pin from back,, make groups of sizes,,then finish/polish off the whole completed ring.. crazy

Casting aside,, The cartouch plate alone spells postwar for me.. Something related to Tartars /mountain troops. Foreign volunteers for the nazis.. Even IF it was a real unit F.V.s hardly got insignia or supplies. The unit had o be fully formed and do something to warrant the making of a ring! 1944 so the ring had to be thought up mid, late 44, then the design work etc. 44 or 45.. Who would want that ring?, how would it be paid for? Reich marks? worthless by 45..
I'd think soldiers would be more concerned with heading home,,finding shelter, feeding themselves/ their families, protecting themselves etc.

Anyone with a theory? opinion? Come on,,what runs thru your mind when seeing those photos ,reading all this?? - Post !!

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G.,

I agree...focusing on cartouche plate could be the key to lead to reliable conclusion.

Are you able to get one of them for a in depth check ? Material, way of construction, ecc...

Anyway this amazing enigma is worth further investigation....IMO

Ric

Last edited by Ric Ferrari; 07/07/2019 07:09 AM.
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Yes , this is dark story about rings
Look really very strange rings and 44 year IMO not time to make rings, because bad setuation for Germany
And one bit questions , how and where it was made ...

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Maybe made in the POW camp after the war ended for them?

Before you blow away this theory saying that such things were not done, I know for a fact that in Norway the German soldiers made and issued the Lappland campaign shield during June-July and maybe later in 1945. These were made of cast aluminium mostly.


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Trigg,, I agree. There were some POW made. The shields and devices were usually sand cast. Very simple made and not in great quantity's. .The AL cast Lappland shield was made at wars end,, postwar.
The more/longer postwar the more modern construction methods would have been used.. The late date of the ring,,the quantity , method,etc. is why most believe they are after the war..

Evgeniy,,yes a bad time for a nazi ring, especially a foreign volunteer! I emailed Jan and waiting to hear if he knows exactly where they were found and what the material is...

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
??...I emailed Jan and waiting to hear if he knows exactly where they were found and what the material is...



Well done, G.

Those info could bring more light

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Trigg,, I agree. There were some POW made. The shields and devices were usually sand cast. Very simple made and not in great quantity's. .The AL cast Lappland shield was made at wars end,, postwar.


Not creating a dispute in any way, but most of 6.th and 7.th Geb.Divisions, along with other units in division size were qualified for the shield, a fair chance that more than 10.000 shields were made in POW camps locally. Yes, crude cast, and hardly 2 identical, and many different styles. Each region created their own style by the looks of it.

And what is another factor is that like this ring, the Lappland shield also bear no swastikas or other 3.reich political symbols.


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Trigg, "Yes, crude cast, and hardly 2 identical, and many different styles. Each region created their own style by the looks of it."

What probably happened was a camp made some shields,,another heard of them or a POW was transferred and the process started again with variances. Lappland cast,, the Dunkirk was hand hammered I think[?],,,

Yes lots of mountain div soldiers but the ring is designated 'Tartar' HL or HG [?]' .

OK, Jan reports the rings found in Austria near Wien.. He's not exactly sure but things they are made from aluminum. He is trying to confirm..

The rings found with a number of these Stalag dog tags...

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Here is one of the tags cleaned up and the info about it :

- Stalag IV-B was one of the largest prisoner-of-war camps in Germany during World War II. Stalag is an abbreviation of the German Stammlager ("Main Camp"). It was located 8 km (5.0 mi) north-east of the town of M?hlberg in Brandenburg, just east of the Elbe river and about 30 mi (48 km) north of Dresden. A sub-camp, sometimes identified as Stalag IV-B/Z, was located at Zeithain, 10 km (6.2 mi) to the south in Saxony.-

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Originally Posted by Ric Ferrari
...That said, I'm sure someone will try to complete a ring by those ground dug parts to sell it...like the only one complete survived

Ric




https://www.ebay.de/itm/Freiwillige-Tartaren-Ring-Bodenfund-WK2-WW2-Selten/133104792254?hash=item1efda9f2be:g:PycAAOSwM4RdH3o6

...as expected grin

Ric

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+1

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Hard polished one

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wow they didn't waste any time!! Wonder if anyone looked in to that actually being a real wartime unit[?] Tartar HG. , 1944?

Guess the market will be flooded.. - my opinion, a remembrance ring at best. [in 44 USSRs killing master Beria murdered many of them]

As an oddity or to study it would be cool to have one as found, with pedestal still attached,,,at that price though I certainly don't need a weird one.. To each his own..

*Thanks Ric... ,G.

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Here's item description by the seller :


An die eBay Polizei :

Hier wird nichts verbotenes angeboten !

Keine Verbotenen Abzeichen , der Ring ist gut zu erkennen , also kein Grund zum L?schen !

Hier kommt der abgebildete Ring Foto 1-4 zur Versteigerung !Dieser ist 100 % Original !

Der Ring wurde f?r Tartarische Nr.1 hergestellt , es sind nur sehr wenig Exemplare Bekannt !!!

Auf den anderen Bildern sehen sie den Fundzustand bzw. wie der Ring nach einer Politur aussehen kann ! Sowie Infos zu der Schlacht !

Material : Alu


...so, according to seller the item made by alu...........as reported by Jan.

Ric

Last edited by Ric Ferrari; 07/12/2019 06:23 AM.
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Dear fellow colleagues, I now about this find a few things you haven't mentined so I will tell you what I know so far. After I encountered the information about the mass ring find I have contacted the founder and I'm still comunicating with him about the matter. He didn't want to sell me any of the rings but I have managed to get some from another founder who were also present.

The find had been made in south Austria NOT the Czech Rep. The ring bends are obviously casted. There were many ring bends in different stages of manufacturing so it was very interesting to get to know the process of making them. The plates are struck-die.

I have bought some of these for my friends and also for myself for trade mostly. I am going to keep some parts of the rings where can you clearly see the stages of making them. Also I have completed one of the rings for the display or trade (I AM OFFERING THIS ONE WITH THE FULL DESCRIPTION!!! SO ANYBODY WILL KNOW THE RING WAS COMPLETED!)

About the originality of the find - I know exactly how the oxidation of the dugg up items looks like from many years of experience. In my honest opinion the oxidation of these ALUMINIUM rings relates to such many years under the ground. I have also seen a photo (not a good quality though) of a ring with the same design of plate but with a compleately different way of manufacturing! This one was engaved and has been found in a POW camp in the north of the Czech Rep.

So that's the info I have been able to collect.

Best regards,

Viki

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Good to see you here Viki! Yes Jan confirmed where they were found: "[i]OK, Jan reports the rings found in Austria near Wien[/i]". No doubt they are aluminum,,,and no doubt they were in ground a long time.... Beria did murder off most of them in 1944. The ring could have been a remembrance type of thing.. - * 2 people were/are selling them. One has sold out already. - Here is a photo of one of the nicer finished off ones.. Other is a unfinished example that Jan has bought.. There might be more of them available and maybe other items from the find eventually..

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Originally Posted by Ric Ferrari
G.,

I agree...focusing on cartouche plate could be the key to lead to reliable conclusion.

Ric



Somehow, something does not match here. There are sand casted rings, which could be made in "field". If you have to make rings in field, you can use sand casting. It requires later lots of hand finishing, but it is duable even in large quantities and it does not require very high skills and lots of equipment for casting and finishing. On other hand we have die struck cartouches (clearly visible on first pics). here we need machine shop for dies, press for die striking etc. If you have machine shop available for die making, and press for die striking, you will never play arround with sand casting. It simply is much more time and labour consuming and gets poorer results. So in my head this does not match - sand casting and die striking in one ring.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Rich, please correct me if wrong,,
, IF sand cast they wouldn't need the perch [?].. I saw once the model gets pressed in sand and usually the metal gets poured in directly [wasn't for a ring],, or,they would pour in wax? then invest cast,,weird...

I agree, still many things don't jive on the whole situation..... Some of the guys enjoy them.. Nothing serious for a ring collection but something interested to include if you like it..

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Not sure I understood what you mean by perch here.
In sand casting you just press model in sand and pour directly liquid metal in sand. It is relatively fast process. Very thick and high sprues on pics says it was sand casting.
With wax and invest cast it is not anymore sand casting, it is already lost wax casting, where you get much, much better results than in sand casting.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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*we are on the same page here.. It is really called sprue holder,,I call it a perch..... I saw a sand casting a few years ago with molten AL poured right in to the mold [for a piston]...

Weird pieces , weird situation... Some will like them regardless.. If so good,,if they like it fine..

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I purchased blanks of these rings and I can say that this is not sand casting at all, the quality of the flap with the flower is very good, so these rings were made by the factory method
And I like this ring , really cool


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