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#342484 05/06/2019 03:08 PM
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Possibly my favorite descriptive word but not the greatest thing to happen to a blade. Can someone tell me what exactly spidering is? How and why does it happen? Can it be stopped or reversed while preserving the integrity of the motto or blade? I suppose this could go on more topics than the SA forum- but still, what is this thing, precisely?
Thanks for all responses-
Mike

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Any thoughts are welcome

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Mike,

I'm not sure I have heard that term applied to blades. It is usually applied to the paint jobs on NSKK scabbards.

You might elaborate or post a picture.

Dave

Dave #342495 05/08/2019 08:36 AM
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hi mike
this is my opinion i feel dave is right on tarket the paint on some scabards look more like spidering spreading out like a webb i also feel most of this spidering is caused by poor storage like heat/cols etc now like dave quoted nskk paint jobs also not only nskk but s/a dagger scabards are laquered on top of the paint to protect the paint i believe we call that anidized laquer on top of the painted scabard i hope i didnt give the wrong opinion here but i have had over all these years a vfew as dave said spidering hey guys its my pleasure to pipe my opinion here god bless andy militarynut

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Ah ok, I see- thank you! I must have been misinformed terminology wise when I was learning about these.. I am not sure of the term, but its when a blade motto (or at least the side of the blade with the motto) has dark streaky lines coming from it. I would imagine still improper storage must be a cause but I cant get a picture up today, unfortunately- but I thought it looked like spiders too so I guess I never looked for a clarification of the term. Is there something in the acid etching that can leach out or away from a motto or a mark?

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hi mike
this is the best both myself n dave can come up with and now you have found a real nazi spider hold on to him we have to measure his nose yea dna god bless andy militarynut

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Mike,

Is this what you are talking about ?

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Yes that is it - even worse on the motto side- exactly! Thank you Dave

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hi mike
age and poor storage heat /cold etc plus its over seventy years old it is what it is hopefully we have this nazi spider under control god bless andy militarynut

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Andy,

Nope, that is not what caused this.

Anyone else ?

Dave #342505 05/09/2019 01:28 AM
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hi dave
what causes this condition your opinion please god bless andyn militarynut

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If these are acid etched, is it some kind of chemical reaction or oxidation, maybe related to being in the scabbard for so long? My SA was truly untouched, literally for the 70 plus years until I found it- I could have sworn when I first drew it, it looked nearly perfect- then I rehoused the blade in the scabbard, drew it again a year or so later and - voila! Much longer streaks of black. Was it the oxygen exposure? I truly have no idea. Vinnie was with me, we were digging through just piles of stuff in my garage last summer and we were both like- whoa! Is that the same dagger? We sat at lunch over chicken wings and neither one of us knew what happened

Dave #342507 05/09/2019 02:22 AM
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Dave,

The condition is caused by salt or oil from handling and freezing temperatures ?

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Nope.

Hint: It happens during the manufacturing process.

Dave

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Now I am intrigued. Is it from polish or Crossgraining?

Dave #342524 05/10/2019 02:17 AM
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Dave,

Improper cooling after forging. Rapid cooling causes internal fractures ?

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Both Mike and Eric are getting close, Some blades are probably more susceptible because of minute surface deformities, and this happens during the final finishing steps.

Dave #342540 05/12/2019 12:59 AM
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Dave,

Quenching the blade and re-tempering out of range ( austenizing ) ? Other wise I give smile

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The short answer is that during the final polish step, the obverse was not held to the wheel quite long enough.

The longer answer:

During the many steps to forge and finish the blade, the last two were:

1. Apply the darkening agent (called "burnishing" in the hobby. This was NOT done by painstakingly using a fine paintbrush to fill in the letters of the motto and trademark. There was not the time.

It was done with some sort of small swab. One sweep down the motto, filling the letters and the adjacent higher points with an indelible darkening agent. One smaller hit on the back to fill in the trademark. Or, a long sweep if it is a dagger with the Rohm or Himmler inscription. At this point the motto and surrounding area looks like one black or dark grey band about 1 cm in width. The trademark is a dark blob.

2. Final grind or polish. The blade was held against the wheel to make it look attractive. It ground a very thin layer of steel from the blade. In doing so, it ground off the darkening agent off the high parts of the motto/trademark, leaving the motto and trademark with a beautiful dark contrasting look. Every now and then, the worker took the blade off the wheel a second too soon.

That is when you see spidering.

Dave

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Thanks Dave for that detailed and informative answer! What was the darkening agent like a liver of sulfur?

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Mike,

No idea what it was. I've never seen it named.

Dave

Dave #342551 05/13/2019 01:11 AM
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Dave,

Thank You - very interesting to learn,

wonder if there are any newsreels of 1930s dagger production ? I cant seem to find them.

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I've not heard of any newsreels.

The existing photos seem to be from the trade press of Solingen or individual company releases.

Dave

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I call it blade cancer .

this blade was once a Rohm dagger and factory reground. I bought this dagger and it was a beauty and one of my collections center pieces.

One day it is a nice clean blade..and practically over night this black stuff appears. There were minute black bubbles seen under a loop ..and breaking those black bubbles exposed rust.
I further cleaned the blade removing all the black stuff / cancer and left minute craters in the blade.

cant say for sure what had happened an the possibility exists what Dave has pointed out...yet it may have been an accident after cleaning and sealing with Renwax.

Regards Larry

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cnr1.JPG (18.28 KB, 75 downloads)

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Looks like Hell doesnt it up close but at regular eye sight not that bad....but bad enough. As I said..I call this blade cancer


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That is it exactly- and exactly what happened, except I did not attempt any clean or polish first. One day nice, next day -yuck.

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Mike, Larry,

Not the same thing. What I showed was incomplete removal of the chemical darkening agent

What is shown just above is rust. How those blotches just pop up is mystifying.

- Moisture in a scabbard ?
- Put up on a hot humid day and rust is from cooling ?
- Sealing in moisture on a humid day with Ren Wax ?

Dave

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What is the best way to remove them?

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Mike,

As far as I know, you cannot remove rust without seriously altering the surface. It is the result of a chemical reaction - Moisture + oxygen on the steel. It is IN the metal, not on it.

You can use gentle polishes to remove or minimize the red/black oxide then use renwax to clean it and seal it, but that is all I know.

Anyone else with suggestions is welcome to add to this.

Dave


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