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#339855 09/13/2018 11:21 AM
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den70 Offline OP
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Colleagues, with this post I want to "ask audience" for help. I'm currently collecting information on DLV55 Dagger, ultimately with the view to create a reference website on manufactures of this dagger and their peculiar features. This dagger along with the SA dagger was one of the earliest patterns of edged weapon of the Third Reich. Also the time of creation of these daggers almost coincide. Due to my previous research on FHH dagger I had to scrutinize a huge amount of period photos from all available on-line stock image companies, so I`ve seen really many images, but I`m sure that in private collections there might be unknown to me images that can help clarify some issues and with my research in general. So, if anybody has information or relevant images, I`d be very thankful for your help. Below there is some information to consider:
1. The earliest photo of the DLV55 dagger is dated January 1934, Goering and Hitler at the premiere of the film "Wilhelm Tell."
2. Summer 1934. Goering wearing a dagger. credit: Deutsche Lufthansa/W.P.B.R. Saris
3. An interesting photo of a group of LF officers in a new uniform introduced after 1935, but some of them wearing long daggers.
4. Walter Wever since September 1, 1933, the commander of the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. Since March 1, 1935, he became the first Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe. Image as of 1936.

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Last edited by den70; 09/13/2018 11:39 AM.

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den70, these DLV 55cm daggers are a very interesting field. Unfortunately it seems that they are nowadays faked in very high quality. And it is very hard to gain sure informations about these daggers because of their rareness.
Please keep in mind that moreover a detailed reference site could even enable the fakers to improve their already very good and hard to recognize fakes.
All the best for your project, regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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den70 Offline OP
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Wotan, I agree that fake makers are constantly improving their products. But I am also sure that the more there are dark spots the easier for fraud to decieve collectors. Also we know that any production is costly, and change of one small detail may be impractical. Do you remember thread where Barry Brown showed very rare DLV manufactored Henkel, if he didn't have photo we wouldn't have anything to proof that Henkels which are sold today are original. So I support communication and info exchange between collectors. Our favourite FHH dagger can open his misteries only if we will exchange information and work together on establishing truth. About DLV55, big helped did Wilhelm Saris, who had very interesting documents.

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for me this henckels DLV are original. I have one about many years in my collection

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den70 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mai65
for me this henckels DLV are original. I have one about many years in my collection


I recommend that you read this thread. Such daggers began to appear massively more than 10 years ago, from 2005 or 2006.
Although previously Henkel's DLV55 dagger , was so rare that in Whitmann's book he was only mentioned, without a photo.



http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/~germand2/ubbthreads.php/topics/259308/1.html

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Last edited by den70; 09/16/2018 04:06 PM.

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Thx for this post Den its an interesting one.
I also red the thread about the "Russian copies" and the first thing that caught my attention was that thick Henckels makermark on the Russian ones, i know Henckles is know for its very crispy Logo and that Russian one has a thick one.
I have compared it with the one mai65 posted, which i found very convincing and there is indeed a difference.

Thicker Logo's can be a result of a die that has to much pressure on it but looking at the depth of the stamp that does not seems to be the case.

A double set of dies would be possible but looking at the their rarity the first batch would be very small, so that would imo not be the case.


Ger

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Originally Posted by den70
Colleagues, with this post I want to "ask audience" for help. I'm currently collecting information on DLV55 Dagger, ultimately with the view to create a reference website on manufactures of this dagger and their peculiar features. This dagger along with the SA dagger was one of the earliest patterns of edged weapon of the Third Reich. Also the time of creation of these daggers almost coincide. Due to my previous research on FHH dagger I had to scrutinize a huge amount of period photos from all available on-line stock image companies, so I`ve seen really many images, but I`m sure that in private collections there might be unknown to me images that can help clarify some issues and with my research in general. So, if anybody has information or relevant images, I`d be very thankful for your help. Below there is some information to consider:
1. The earliest photo of the DLV55 dagger is dated January 1934, Goering and Hitler at the premiere of the film "Wilhelm Tell."
2. Summer 1934. Goering wearing a dagger. credit: Deutsche Lufthansa/W.P.B.R. Saris
3. An interesting photo of a group of LF officers in a new uniform introduced after 1935, but some of them wearing long daggers.
4. Walter Wever since September 1, 1933, the commander of the Reichsluftfahrtministerium. Since March 1, 1935, he became the first Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe. Image as of 1936.

The internet is full of misinformation as it is the blind leading the blind.. Just the facts
Buying original Casberg art..

Last edited by DAMAST; 09/19/2018 04:37 AM.
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den70 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gerrit1963
Thx for this post Den its an interesting one.
I also red the thread about the "Russian copies" and the first thing that caught my attention was that thick Henckels makermark on the Russian ones, i know Henckles is know for its very crispy Logo and that Russian one has a thick one.
I have compared it with the one mai65 posted, which i found very convincing and there is indeed a difference.

Thicker Logo's can be a result of a die that has to much pressure on it but looking at the depth of the stamp that does not seems to be the case.

A double set of dies would be possible but looking at the their rarity the first batch would be very small, so that would imo not be the case.


Ger


Gerrit, it is very difficult to consider lines thickness judging only by photo. In my opinion, if we didn`t have Barry`s photo, we wouldn`t have good reasons to think that one of Henkel`s is a fake. Maybe long-term collectors can remember whether they happen to come across the dagger by Henkel and fittings it was equipped with. Maybe someone owns old photos. To my mind it seems to be unreasonable for Henkel considering such small batch and a very short period of time about a year to produce daggers featuring significant varieties (all fittings, blade, logo). I hope that colleagues will be able to join our discussion and to add facts after MAX show.


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den70 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DAMAST

The internet is full of misinformation as it is the blind leading the blind.. Just the facts
Buying original Casberg art..


DAMAST, I hope that I understand you right, as a non-native English speaker, firstly, I want to apologize for any misunderstanding that may arise. Anyway, I`m gonna answer the way I understand your above post.
I do agree that collecting is saturated with numerous myths and misconceptions, which include both modern stories resulting from lack of knowledge and outright lying. In my opinion, forums are a great place to enhance your knowledge and share it with others. When we worked on development of the website on Casberg we spent years and did much to collect all information presented there. Our information relies on documents found in German archives, we visited Solingen and Berlin searching his previously unknown artworks and facts from his life. All information from Casberg`s website was found not within the first google search result page. I hope that the website on Casberg is not only interesting but enough informative for everybody who is interested in history of German uniform.
As for DLV55 dagger, again if I understand you right, information that I`m currently researching and will use further appears to you faulty, because it is collected from unreliable sources. Let me assure you that I consider information that can be proved by period photos and documents. Wilhelm Saris posted some interesting original documents that cast light on certain aspects of awarding and which daggers were awarded. Other conclusions and statements can be made from photos. Definitely it is mostly impossible to find out a full package of documents. So, if colleagues wish to share and help, it will be always welcome.


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Thank you for the reply..
I have been to Europe many times doing research.. The main issue is where you obtained you photos.. Many (not all) are taken of websites etc.. And are not from your own research or your own pictures.....
Also some have been signed in pencil after Mr. Casberg death.. I also have many original Paul Casberg drawings and paintings that are not pictured on your site and a few that are but not credited to me.. Some of your pictures are credited to people who NEVER owned the original art... I guess they just found them also on the web..
There was many original Paul Casbergs that when they were sold by Atwood were Not signed and now they are. Very surprised you do not notice this..... I have invoices from when the Eickhorn catalog was designed that prove my points and also it is easy to see that Casberg did not do the Art in the catalog . Maybe his designs but that is all.
You asked me for help some time ago but I did not want to get envolved as a American was doing a book on Casberg and this site was used to derail this effort.
So with the disinformation on the Casberg site your new effort may have the same issues also..
As I said you need more experience in research and cannot take the word of pictures on the internet and of people who have a vested interest in supplying you with photos of artwork they never owned or have modified. This is not opinion but fact..
Regards: James

Last edited by DAMAST; 09/24/2018 09:36 PM.
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I agree VERY strongly with DAMAST

There are some significant unanswered questions here.

Please do NOT post any photos for the moment.

Last edited by Dave; 09/25/2018 12:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by DAMAST
Thank you for the reply..
I have been to Europe many times doing research.. This is not opinion but fact..
Regards: James


James, thanks for your opinions. I and my team tried to do our best to find sources and check information. For accurate biography we requested documents from the Landes- and Bundesarchives. As for published artworks, inaccuracies may occur there. We are trying to ensure that all copyrights are respected, as it is stated on the home page. It has been always stated there that if among images taken from Internet someone has noticed works for which he has rights as an owner and does not want it to be displayed on the website, contact us and we will remove it, as we respect the owner`s rights. A lot of images of artworks were handed to us by collectors. If you remember I contacted you and initially you did not mind sharing your knowledge and works. I sent you a draft biography and wanted to know your opinion, unfortunately later our communication interrupted. Perhaps, due to my bad English or any other reason. I do not state that our website on Casberg is perfect. For the present moment even the first books on edged weapons cause to smile and abound with inaccuracies. But if we didn`t have them, we would not enjoy perfect modern reference books. If you release your book or site and it will be better than my, than I won`t have any good reason to maintain further my website. And believe me, I'll find a better way to spend my money than paying for hosting, domain name and technical maintenance. I didn?t yield even a single cent through site on Casberg, because it has never been meant for making profit. Therefore, this website wasn`t designed to derail someone`s work. On the contrary, I would gladly share my information. The reason for development of the website was not to satisfy my personal ambition but the opportunity to share the knowledge that we could find.

Best regards Den.


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den70 Offline OP
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Dave, probably I have to clarify some points.

Firstly, the work on this project is currently in the process and it is difficult to predict when it will be finished. At the moment I'm focused on collecting information. To do this we request original documents from different archives and do our best to examine physically documents and original photos. For this we visit the NARA, the Library of Congress, the Bundesarchive, the Archive of Solingen, Yad Vashem and various other places where original documents, newspapers or photographs are located. Sometimes we have to wait for a long time and seek friends who will be able to visit the archive and place an order for documents reproduction on-site. For example, concerning Casberg, in accordance with German Federal law on archive materials we waited half a year for the expiration of limitations on use of documents and then another half a year while my friend was able to visit the Landesarchiv in Berlin and order them, because online orders were not accepted. We arranged a tour to Solingen and Munich to visit archives because their collections are not digitized, while their available catalog proved to be helpless on our subject of research. We spent there two weeks studying local period newspapers and available documents. Therefore, statements that we collect information only from the Internet are not true. But of course, any help from collectors with their period photos, images of objects from their private collections, newspapers or documents that they could find is welcome and we always apply for such help.

Secondly, I am deeply convinced that the more information is available, the easier it will be for collectors and harder for scammers. The statements that showing all nuances of original pieces can help swindlers bring their fakes to perfection do not hold water. Uneducated collectors or their laziness along with scarcity of information play into swindlers` hands. Some collectors do not see any point in buying literature to educate themselves, others are too lazy even to look for information on forums. Anyway, gaps in knowledge cause not only financial losses resulting from fakes purchase but also disappointment and even disgust from collecting. I know examples when a person having bought a fake and figuring it out in time decided to sell his items off and quit collecting, switched to other less risky objects.

Below my thoughts why such reference sites can be useful. In my library I have books by Johnson, Angolia and other authors that were published within 50s - 70s. Information and text content seem to be outdated for the present moment even in comparison with the books by Wittmann. Nowadays we can enjoy newly published books in which there are a lot of new information and better quality images. Relatively not long ago emerged websites about Heer, Kriegsmarine and LF2. Perhaps they still, like Johnson books, lack excellent text content or high quality images, but in my opinion, these books and sites facilitate collector`s learning and help avoid making mistakes in the course of formation of their collection.

Our world has become digital. Many museums are digitizing their collections, young collectors more often search an answer in the Internet rather than in books. If not to incorporate new technologies with well-established knowledge, then who will need our stuff, only a narrow circle of collectors 40 + ???

If members of this respected by me community are reluctant to help me, I can understand them and respect their choice. But I have also my right to continue research and, if possible, to share knowledge.

P.S. Regarding the site on DLV, if anyone is still interested. At the moment, there are 3 original orders that were kindly provided by Wilhelm Saris, as well as a number of publications in the newspapers. There are photos featuring wearing and certain features of these daggers. We have compiled and structured the list of producers (perhaps it requires amendments) and overview of their characteristics. Some of those pieces were personally examined by me, some by colleagues. We also compared objects to each other. But of course there are still pieces that were studied only from photos.


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Originally Posted by den70
Dave, probably I have to clarify some points.

Our world has become digital. Many museums are digitizing their collections, young collectors more often search an answer in the Internet rather than in books. If not to incorporate new technologies with well-established knowledge, then who will need our stuff, only a narrow circle of collectors 40 + ???
.


Less is more....

So you have missed my whole point. And have not addressed your many short comings with the website images , some not even Casberg art...
Simple..
Regards: James
Some of the websites like yours assemble information for free and than have shut down website to print book etc...
Auto Corp website comes to mind..

This is a fact it is not a opinion assembled from others faulty information .
The information on your website is not yours.. You just assembled it incorrectly.. It was always there you just have to understand what you looking at..




Last edited by DAMAST; 09/26/2018 06:37 PM.
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James, your reasoning is wrong. What is published on the Internet remains there forever. So even if to assume that I close the site, the information will have been already spread. Your second mistake, I'm not going to publish the book. Nowadays books less popular than the Internet. Just like many years ago horses failed to compete with cars. I do not intend to publish a book. What I could learn about Casberg, I learned and shared with others. Perhaps the site has inaccuracies, but it was created to ensure that everyone would know the truth. What is the use of knowledge if it is known only to you. Anyway, it is your right. James, I regret, that you refused to participate in my project that could be our mutual. If you look through our previous correspondence, you?ll remember that at the beginning you didn?t mind helping me. I sent you all my text drafts and was ready to provide images. But due to some reasons unknown to me you stopped our communication. And the last, but not the least, every site or reference book is someone else?s information assembled by the author. Finally, I am strongly convinced that information must be available.


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I did not want my name associated with the (inaccuracies) as you call it.
I do know that you were aware of a book being done here in the states.. As the major mentor to your site was also working with him before you..
As I said address these (inaccuracies).. So as you say quote (everyone will know the truth..)
((((( Quote;; What is the use of knowledge if it is known only to you.))))
Are you really that naive?? Ask your mentor why he does not share all important facts with you and others.
I'm not here to help you set yourself up as oracle of Casberg art .
I can keep going but I have spent to much time already.. Casberg did not sign his original art in Pencil. Prints yes.. original art is Either unsigned or signed but not pencil..
This is your tip of the day and now the world knows...
I have worked too hard and have spent to much on documents and original paperwork to share my archive ..
You need to do more homework before going off doing another website with disinformation.
I know you are at a disadvantage because you do not have access to original documents in private archives and researching for years seeing this art before it was signed..

Last edited by DAMAST; 09/26/2018 10:02 PM.
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This discussion is really about the depth of knowledge needed on a specific subject to do proper research and required to produce acceptable results. The part that scares me is original art signed in pencil.

Maybe time to cool off for a day or two.

Dave

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