UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Early Klaas Configs

The early Klaas army dagger crossguards have always been a little confusing to me as the hand chiseling or enhancing work makes it hard to determine whether it is a 1st or 2nd pattern. Both types are normally found with tapered tang blades and variations to the wreath, swas, eagle body and head, this custom or range of differences may very well be down to the variations of the individual chiseleur employed by Klaas.
One thing I did notice while looking at numerous examples posted across the web was the difference in the crossguard swirls on the 1st and 2nd pattern crossguards. The majority of the 1st and earliest daggers from what I can tell have a smaller and raised central circle compared to the larger, flatter and more common swirl on the 2nd.
The two daggers posted below are both tapered and early although the differences are obvious, many however are not so blatant and if you have an early Klaas wondered if you could post a picture to see if this swirl theory can be used to determine a pattern.
Thanks for reading.

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Was that not a trait on one of the ones we inspected together?

It looked as though it had part of a rod through it. Not sure if I remember the maker but it might have been similar.

If it was then I think you already have a photo of it though I could no doubt dig it out if required.

Frank

Frank,
I remember your dagger had the same small raised swirl, and it did look just like a small rod passed through either finial. I am afraid the maker eludes me though and it is not clear from the pictures I have of yours.

One day, when your bored, see if you can find a few Klaas armies amongst the heaps you stored under the floorboards, I am sure you MUST have an early one.

Jon

Those are some fine daggers. I don’t have a Klaas to contribute but looks like you are on to something - and those pictures –Wow! The best I have seen on the sight. Hopefully Paul will show a few of his early Klaas I bet he has a few stashed.

Jon what about the raised pad that the swas is on your 2nd crossguard that is absent on the first any pattern their?

Tom,
Unfortunately not on the 2nd pattern raised platform under the swas, the majority of 2nds do not have it, I was lucky with this one. Klaas armies are certainly intriguing as you can find 1st and 2nd pattern early crossguards both enhanced and un-enhanced, some with chiseling to the wing feathers and others without but with the addition of the circular platform.....a right mixed bag without any apparent factory requirements being enforced, or possibly changed on a regular basis.
To complicate things further they are also known to have used guards from firms such as E-Pack.
Paul will probably confirm that most early Klaas armies show some form of enhancing and if your lucky you will occasionally come across one chiseled by the "employee of the month", like the one shown here owned by Eric > KLAAS 1ST

Great Thread Degens The early Klaas daggers are really beautiful.

Lummmm....Look at the rods on that one !!!

Wonderful early daggers here. Thank you for showing. I think there are not much even advanced collectors who are familiar with these varations.
Regards,

Two very beautiful daggers Jon! Unfortunately I can`t add anything as I don`t have one...yet interesting to see that both are so different. Great photo`s!

Oh a thread so close to my heart.
Eric's dagger is classic, one thing I have always noticed is the ends of the quillion swirls are very pronounced, they stick way out.
Each one of these early ones vary slightly due to the hand work. Eric a beauty!!

I've tried to find the early pattern casting similar to degans piece. This one is similar but I do not believe it's the same crossguard casting just too many differences, hand enhancing not withstanding.

Finally here are some crossguard patterns by Klaas in my stash!!

It my eagle on Heer Robert Klaas.

crossgard RK on 1 raylway dagger.

Paul,
The 2nd piece you show has an early 1st Alcoso crossguard, just another indication of the variety of makers who supplied Klaas with parts, their later production daggers switched to Generic A & B and sadly lose the hand enhancing.
Your dagger with deepest orange grip looks to have the same slightly later or less un-enhanced pattern crossguard that initially started this post, I have shown a comparison below, and as Wittmann states it could very well be the same base crossguard without the bling!. The interesting thing to me about this dagger is that is blows my theory on the crossguard swirl out of the water.

In comparison, Den70's dagger is another variation that I believe was undocumented by Wittmann. Showing no comparison to either the enhanced or un-enhanced Klaas, it has massive feet to the bird, the upper wings are very close to the top of the crossguard and the beak is snub nosed and gives the appearance the bird has flown into a window!. Wotan owns an identical guard on a Plumacher. I would like to see more daggers with this crossguard design to be able to attribute it.

The pictures below show den70's Klaas and Wotans Plumacher ( hope you dont mind Wotan ), the only difference in the two, being the variation of enhancing and sharpness of picture. Compared to the Klaas examples shown above the differences are huge.

It's truly amazing the amount of variation hand work can give these pieces.
Beautiful work. Can think of anything made today that gets this sort of time and attention.
Gotta love this Klaas stuff.

I agree they are in a KLAAS of their own